Fixer sinking to the bottom (in the factory bottle)?

grain elevator, it appears that some of us feel that you may be confusing underfixing with some other artefact you are seeing such as the pink dye. I wonder how we get to the bottom of whether this is the case?

2 questions for you, if I may, to try and help the discovery of the cause along

1. Have you had problems of this nature in the past with any other fixers be they just other containers of TMax fix or any other fix? I ask this to try and rule out your water as being the problem

2. Does the pinkness eventually disappear thus ensuring that what you are seeing isn't underfixing at all but simply the appearance caused by the pink remains of the dye?

Suggestion: Could you take a digital picture of the negative that you believe to be underfixed so we can see it

No guarantees that this will get us closer to the cause but it should move the discussion along hopefully towards the likely cause

I seem to be a a minority of one in wondering if it might be faulty fixer but how do you feel about my suggestion you contact the stockist from whom you bought the fixer and explain the issue?

So now that's 3 questions and not 2

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

The Op quotes the fixer as being freshly opened and in date so only leaves his mistake on dilution. Not impossible but everything he says indicates a faulty fixer. He say it is Kodak TMax fixer made in Germany so he presumes Tetenal which does seem likely. In the event that this is a faulty fixer and one made by Tetenal I'd say it is worth the OP's time to alert his stockist and find out if it is definitely Tetenal and take it from there

pentaxuser

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Why would it matter (to the OP) if Tetenal is the manufacturer?
It is most likely that Tetenal makes all of the Ilford liquid chemicals, and most of the Kodak liquid chemicals, and probably lots of other brand's photo chemicals.
Kodak Alaris are the people to contact.

MattKing said:

Why would it matter (to the OP) if Tetenal is the manufacturer?
It is most likely that Tetenal makes all of the Ilford liquid chemicals, and most of the Kodak liquid chemicals, and probably lots of other brand's photo chemicals.
Kodak Alaris are the people to contact.

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Frankly I was only trying to help get the OP to the likely cause and the first stage is usually to contact the seller, assuming of course it was a shop or retailer. Essentially under UK law the seller is primarily responsible. At that point of contact I'd want to ask where the fixer was obtained from, simply as part of the conversation. Where it goes from there really depends on what happens at the first point of contact

Yes I agree that if bought by the seller via KA then the rest of of the proceedings may be with KA but it is surely the stockist that is the first point of contact if It were the U.K. I have no idea what consumer law say about these matters in Germany

It is just another avenue of inquiry to get to the bottom if the cause. Whether to OP finds my suggestion useful now or at a later stage in his quest for the truth is entirely down to him

pentaxuser

Maybe the very last sticky (by PE) will give you a hand to sort this out? At the top of the opening page.
BTW he said, in answer to a direct question that he always prewet before development - for exactly this sort of thing?

grain elevator said:

The fixer is Kodak Tmax, made in Germany, I assume by Tetenal. I assumed it to be a rapid fixer, as the name suggests it works with the Tmax films, although the words "rapid" or "ammonium" are no-where to be found on the bottle.
I agitated as per Ilford instructions, Paterson twirly stick at first, then inversions, about 10 sec per minute, erring on the side of more agitation. Otherwise I pretty much do what you do, MattKing. Won't be re-using this liter of working solution though.

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I would do two things, warm things up a bit, 20 to 24°C, and agitate as constantly as possible. With absolutely new rapid fixer, Kodak, Ilford, Ilford Hypam, with the old fashioned films, these would clear remarkably fast, 30-45 seconds. T-Max and most modern films require, longer and more agitation. I have a work process where I use a Jobo processor, I routinely fix with 1&4 Kodak or Ilford Rapid fix for 5 minutes at minimum of 21°C. I then use a 3 minute treatment with Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, right after fixing. Use the hypo clearing agent once, then toss. The hypo clearing agent will get out any traces of dye. In my experience the HCA is the best insurance against pink or purple dyes. I then use a running water wash, take the tank off the machine and just fill and dump the tank at least 10 times in minimum of 5 minutes, minimum of 20°C tap water. Final rinse in distilled water with a couple drops of wetting agent.
As long as you mix it well the solution should be a uniform strength, it's possible to pour higher density liquids to the bottom, but not without trying. I remember seeing a fellow being really careful, adding concentrated sulfuric acid to a beaker of water, it layered on the bottom, when stirred it got hot in a hurry, no injuries.

grain elevator, I had a look at just one of our U.K. stockists who sells Tmax fixer. I wasn't able to see if there was any hint on the label as to who makes it or where made as the label becomes unclear at higher magnification. I look forward to hearing what you eventually did to solve your problem

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

grain elevator, I had a look at just one of our U.K. stockists who sells Tmax fixer. I wasn't able to see if there was any hint on the label as to who makes it or where made as the label becomes unclear at higher magnification. I look forward to hearing what you eventually did to solve your problem

pentaxuser

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it's made by Tetenal, or it was made by Tetenal...

Alessandro Serrao said:

it's made by Tetenal, or it was made by Tetenal...

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Thanks Alessandro

pentaxuser

I've found this https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/precipitate-in-new-bottle-of-t-max-fixer.166229/
as it seems, the problem is at least a year old...
That is colloidal sulfur deposited on the bottom of the bottle.
Probably the fixer is too acidic...

Are you sure you are not diluting an already diluted solution?

On another note, I’ve had concentrated Hypam fixer go bad. The sulphur separated and it stuck to the 5L container walls and bottom in thick chunks, and particles were floating. I don’t recall that it was particularly very outdated, although it was by about 3 years.

Fixer concentrates often sit around on store shelves for too long and end up being too old before they're sold. Also, even "in-date" concentrates can go bad due to storage conditions. The sulfur floating around and/or stuck on the bottom and sides of the container plus the sulfur smell are indications of this.

As for TMY and the stain... I started a thread here (or over on the LF forum maybe?) around a year ago about a problem with the dyes in TMY. I had two boxes that came out of the fix stained an almost opaque dark blue. I use two-bath fixation for film and always use fresh and clip test, so the fixer was definitely alright. The only way to clear them was an alkaline after-bath. I used sodium bicarbonate, s. metaborate and s. carbonate; all did the job. The dye came out of the emulsion and turned the water a brilliant magenta in just a few minutes. The problem persisted for way more than a year, with different batches of fixer.

I've never seen anyone post this problem. For a while, I thought it was just me and that I'd need to have a final alkaline bath anytime I used TMY. However, the last couple of boxes haven't exhibited this; they come almost clear from the fix and then clear up fine in the wash. Not sure what the deal was. I got no responses to speak of to my post and Kodak Alaris didn't respond either.

@grain elevator: Visible underfixing presents as an opaque layer or semi-opaque whitish fog. Note that film can be underfixed and be entirely clear as well, but will end up degrading due to undissolved thiosulfates left in the emulsion. If you can see this fog or opaque areas, you're fixer is really not doing much of anything... Note also that the dye stain left in the film after fixing is not necessarily underfixing (as my experience above shows). Just want to make sure you aren't confusing dye stain for underfixing fog.

Best,

Doremus

I can certainly attest to the opaque blue dye. After the first pre-wash it resembles the colour of deep blue ink. I decided to do an experiment and kept on filling and dumping water with both agitation and stand for several minutes and it took until about the 3rd or 4th fill and dump routine before the water was almost but not quite clear.

My Tmax film pre-dated the backing paper issue so a while ago. Good to know that Kodak appear to have solved the problem

pentaxuser

I've standardized on Formulary TF4 fixer for both film and prints. It distinctly settles and needs to be well stirred before dilution for use.

DREW WILEY said:

I've standardized on Formulary TF4 fixer for both film and prints. It distinctly settles and needs to be well stirred before dilution for use.

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Interesting! I suppose I'll try to stir or gently shake the concentrate in the future on the off chance that this can actually happen with other fixers, I guess it won't hurt.

Sorry I'm not replying to all posts individually. Because these points have come up again: No, I'm pretty sure I got the concentration right. The concentrate is in date and shows no signs of degradation. My water is hard but not excessively so; I've lived in places where the shower and the kettle built up limescale much faster than here. I've found the anti-halation dye to be an issue for clearing tests but if anything that has made me fix longer (see post #14); and I'm fairly certain that I didn't mistake leftover dye for underfixing in this case. I've had more colorful TMY-2 that was however more translucent. Most of all, it did clear further when I re-fixed.

I don't think we can solve what exactly the problem was, and I won't be observing much more of this exact issue because my little stock of TMY-2 is coming to an end and I won't be buying more at the current price differential with Ilford. I will be extra cautious with this fixer and make sure to give lots of agitation and work at higher temperature. If such problems persist, I will try using demineralized water.
Thank you all, this bizarre problem has gotten much more attention than I thought it would.

Thanks for that summary grain elevator. I have only ever used Ilford fixer and have never found any need to stir it. I note that you have mentioned the extra cost of Tmax fixer and my check on admittedly only one stockist in the U.K. confirms what you have found. Ilford fixer is about £13 per 1L whereas Tmax is about £0.60 more and there are fixers such as Fotospeed that are cheaper per 1L and much cheaper per 5L

Unless there is something special about Tmax fixer then it seem to me that other cheaper fixers are likely to do the job as well as Tmax and for less cost

pentaxuser

Fixer is one chemical that I prefer to buy off a shelf, so local availability can be a determining factor.
You could reach out to Kodak Alaris: ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com