Fixer question

Kirks518 · Oct 11, 2016

My current stock of fixer is approaching 6 months of age. It's Ilford Rapid Fixer. My previous batch of fixer was Photographer's Formulary Archival Fixer (can't remember if it was TF-4 or TF-5).

I remember after I first started using the Formulary, I was seeing silver on the inside of the bottle. It eventually became so dense, that it looked black (just what was attached to the insides of the bottle, not the liquid itself), and completely coated the bottle.

As the Ilford is approaching it's end of life, there is nothing on the sides of the bottle, and the liquid looks completely clear. No floaties, not debris, no residue at all.

Why the drastic difference? While I don't track number of rolls, it's pretty safe to say that the amount through each was similar. I shoot a variety of film in both 35mm and 120 if that matters.

I'm just curious as to why there is so much of what appears to be silver in the PF, but none in the Ilford. Anyone know?

dE fENDER · Oct 12, 2016

The black coating in old fixed usually is not silver, it's silver sulfide. It produced because of fixer decomposition. But if the fixer has enough buffer, such as sodium sulfite or sodium metabisulfite, silver will remain dissolved.

darkroommike · Oct 12, 2016

Most fixers list capacity and shelf life for mixed working strength solutions and opened/unopened jugs of concentrate. Usually something like 20-25 rolls per liter of film strength fixer OR two months. And six months for opened jugs of concentrate. Practically everyone agrees that these manufacturer limits are rather conservative but to each his own. In your case I'd suggest you mix up fresh working solutions and put a piece of masking tape on the bottle and make tally marks for each roll fixed. It's also been recommended by the experts here and elsewhere that you mix and maintain separate working solutions for film and paper since the byproducts of fixation are different.

LAG · Oct 12, 2016

Kirks518 said:
Why the drastic difference? ... I'm just curious as to why there is so much of what appears to be silver in the PF, but none in the Ilford. Anyone know?

Ilford's fixer has not the same (simplistic) formula as the other one

Agulliver · Oct 13, 2016

I have tended to use Ilford Rapid Fixer down the years, and I haven't ever had the black deposits you describe. I did see it with a simpler fixer I tried in the 80s....I forget what brand, but it was something cheap and cheerful my school was using. It could be that the Ilford Rapid Fixer is just an all round better product, with enough buffer to prevent the formation of silver compounds.

6 months is about the max for Ilford Rapid Fixer at 1+4, at least that is my experience. I've not tried extending it beyond that much.

Kirks518 · Oct 13, 2016

Yeah, after reading the replies, it all makes sense; the Ilford has a better buffer. And while I haven't had any issues, I can tell it's time for a new batch of fixer by the smell....

Lachlan Young · Oct 13, 2016

LAG said:
Ilford's fixer has not the same (simplistic) formula as the other one

As far as I know, TF4 & TF5's formulae have never been published - TF4 is alkaline & supersaturated, TF5 is slightly acid pH - if you want to know more, ask Photo Engineer or Bill Troop - they designed them. Both are based on current ideas around more effective use of fixer technology.

By way of comparison, most acid rapid fixes are fairly identical to each other & have been since the start - not very many ways to skin that cat.

Ian Grant · Oct 13, 2016

I've always have silver build up on the sides of the thick plasticbottles I store my Ilford Rapid fixer or Hypam that I use for film fixing. It lasts considerably longer than 6 months made up. I do test on a regular basis to check the clearing time and also less frequently the silver content.

Ian

LAG · Oct 13, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
As far as I know, TF4 & TF5's formulae have never been published - TF4 is alkaline & supersaturated, TF5 is slightly acid pH - if you want to know more, ask Photo Engineer - he designed them. Both are based on current ideas around more effective use of fixer technology.

By way of comparison, most acid rapid fixes are fairly identical to each other & have been since the start - not very many ways to skin that cat.

I was answering the OP question (about the black aspect) even without knowing that TF's formulation. You don't have to be a alchemist to design a simple "Sodium Thiosulfate" fixer, do you? (without Acid, or Potassium, ...)

I am not interested on those fixers (for me, the fixer is a serious and important question) and I don't know who is Photo Engineer either, thank you anyway

MattKing · Oct 13, 2016

LAG said:
I don't know who is Photo Engineer either

A retired photo engineer, who posts here and other places.
He had a long career with Eastman Kodak, among others. His name (Ronald Mowrey) is on many, many patents, including one of the critical patents related to the final Kodachrome process (K-14).

He was one of the developers of TF-5 fixer, as well as the paper developer Liquidol.

He is very generous and helpful here and otherwise.

Lachlan Young · Oct 13, 2016

LAG said:
I was answering the OP question (about the black aspect) even without knowing that TF's formulation. You don't have to be a alchemist to design a simple "Sodium Thiosulfate" fixer, do you? (without Acid, or Potassium, ...)

I am not interested on those fixers (for me, the fixer is a serious and important question) and I don't know who is Photo Engineer either, thank you anyway

TF4, TF5 & Ilford Rapid Fix are all Ammonium Thiosulfate based.

LAG · Oct 14, 2016

MattKing said:
A retired photo engineer, who posts here and other places.
He had a long career with Eastman Kodak, among others. His name (Ronald Mowrey) is on many, many patents, including one of the critical patents related to the final Kodachrome process (K-14).

He was one of the developers of TF-5 fixer, as well as the paper developer Liquidol.

He is very generous and helpful here and otherwise.

Thank you very much MattKing, good to know

Then, he will probably be the best one to explain that (TF) blackened the OP mentioned, however ...

Lachlan Young said:
TF4, TF5 & Ilford Rapid Fix are all Ammonium Thiosulfate based.

Excuse me Lachlan Young

I don't know to what point that sentece has to do with answering this thread, and I hope (suppose) that you are not trying to explain, argue or talk over with me about formulation ... I am not talking about TF's, I am talking with knowledge of the facts about "that black" (on some "homemade" fixers with different "and simple" formula), and also with the knowledge of the fact about having used (to the point of exhaustion) Ilford Rapid Fixer, just to explain "that OP curiosity" between TF/Ilford reactions my own way/experience. Perhaps Ronald Mowrey will come to say the reason for that blackening, and perhaps he could related with the fixer formula or with squid ink ... (the latter is a joke) but that's my answer to the first post, what about yours?

All that said only to make that clear. These post we are exchanging might be due to my bad explanation in english, sorry about that.

darkroommike · Oct 14, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
As far as I know, TF4 & TF5's formulae have never been published - TF4 is alkaline & supersaturated, TF5 is slightly acid pH - if you want to know more, ask Photo Engineer - he designed them. Both are based on current ideas around more effective use of fixer technology.

By way of comparison, most acid rapid fixes are fairly identical to each other & have been since the start - not very many ways to skin that cat.

Bill Troop (the T in TF-4) will be very surprised to learn that PE developed both TF-4 and TF-5.

tedr1 · Oct 14, 2016

Take the guess work out of fixer exhaustion, use these test strips, 30c each, instant results

http://www.ctlscientific.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=90741

Lachlan Young · Oct 14, 2016

darkroommike said:
Bill Troop (the T in TF-4) will be very surprised to learn that PE developed both TF-4 and TF-5.

Have edited the original post - chalk that one up to typing too fast...

LAG said:
I don't know to what point that sentece has to do with answering this thread, and I hope (suppose) that you are not trying to explain, argue or talk over with me about formulation ... I am not talking about TF's, I am talking with knowledge of the facts about "that black" (on some "homemade" fixers with different "and simple" formula), and also with the knowledge of the fact about having used (to the point of exhaustion) Ilford Rapid Fixer, just to explain "that OP curiosity" between TF/Ilford reactions my own way/experience. Perhaps Ronald Mowrey will come to say the reason for that blackening, and perhaps he could related with the fixer formula or with squid ink ... (the latter is a joke) but that's my answer to the first post, what about yours?

All that said only to make that clear. These post we are exchanging might be due to my bad explanation in english, sorry about that.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here - all fixers can produce sludge given the right conditions as a result of use/ exhaustion - I suspect you're seeing sludging in your homemade (sodium thiosulfate based?) fixer because it is probably poorly buffered & therefore has a vastly lower capacity than a commercially designed fixer. It's also worth noting that Grant Haist argues that sodium thiosulfate fixers are not up to the job of properly fixing modern high iodide content film - as (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

LAG · Oct 14, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
...I think we're talking at cross purposes here ...

I wouldn't say "we"

Eric Rose · Oct 14, 2016

Hey LAG, chill buddy. I have the same experience as Ian Grant with Ilford fixer.

LAG · Oct 15, 2016

Eric Rose said:
Hey LAG, chill buddy. I have the same experience as Ian Grant with Ilford fixer.

Bravo Eric! and I do sometimes wash my teeth after dinner ... Between you and me, this chill buddy couldn't find on "his words" (therefore in your experience) the answer to "the drastic difference" the OP asked for? But I am very happy for you either case

I stop here

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