Fixer precipitates

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reub2000

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The issue of fixer precipitates has come up on hyrbidphoto. I thought it be better to continue the discussion here because this is more about b&w processing than scanning.

Does anyone know of a good way to minimize these in a low volume darkroom?
 
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reub2000

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By adding a bit of sodium bicarbonate and watching the fixer fizz? Just kidding.

If I switched to an alkaline fixer like the silvergrain fixer would it still be necessarily to stop the film in vinegar to preserve the fixer?
 

Photo Engineer

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Development can continue as long as the film is alkaline and until developing agent diffuses outward, therefore a stop or rinse is useful. I use a stop.

TF-4 is my preferred alkaline fix. I don't know enough about the Silvergrain fix to say anything pro or con.

PE
 
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reub2000

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One of the posters here believes that plastic bottles can lead to premature fixer death. What do you use for a fixer container? I'm not sure where I could get a 1 gallon glass container.
 

Photo Engineer

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One of the posters here believes that plastic bottles can lead to premature fixer death. What do you use for a fixer container? I'm not sure where I could get a 1 gallon glass container.

This is bogus. Fixer concentrate is shipped in plastic containers.

PE
 

Lowell Huff

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fixer precipitate

The pH or plastic bottles are not an issue with precipitates in the fix bath. My suggestion is that if you are using hardener, STOP. With todays' emulsions, it is not necessary.
 
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reub2000

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The pH or plastic bottles are not an issue with precipitates in the fix bath. My suggestion is that if you are using hardener, STOP. With todays' emulsions, it is not necessary.
Now I realize that. When I get the TF-4 I will mix it without any hardener. It's just that I don't expect ground shipping from Montana to be that fast.
 

Photo Engineer

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TF-4 does not contain any hardener to start with.

Hardener has no effect one way or another on the formation of precipitate, more or less. It is more a function of pH and age. I have had some fixer concentrates without hardener go bad on the shelf while others sitting next to them are just fine.

PE
 

PhotoJim

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I had a bottle go bad recently. No hardener. Good old Ilford rapid fixer. It wasn't super new, though.

I didn't actually know it was bad, but assumed it must be. The next bottle I tried, which had been unopened since purchase about a year ago, was fine.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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I've bought a 1 gallon jug of TF-4 which had a substantial amount of milky precipitate (as delivered by UPS). The precipitate went right into solution with some stirring and it stayed in solution. The TF-4 worked fine.I figured the TF-4 probably got cold in transit from Montana and some of the ingredients (maybe metaborate?) came out of solution.
 

PhotoJim

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Every jug of TF-4 I've ever bought has done this, not only during shipping but in storage in my darkroom, too. Unless you live in Indonesia and get your TF-4 shipped in July in the heat of Montana summer I think you're going to have precipitate, and probably even then.
 

Photo Engineer

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TF4 is highly buffered to maintain the proper pH value.

This fixer will withstand a rinse beforehand or a stop without any undue effect on the capacity of the fix.

That buffer is reason for the cloudiness you observe. The fixer is highly concentrated and is therefore milky in appearance as the concentrate, but once made up as stock, it is clear.

BTW, I am not connected to TF4 in any way although I do use it. And, I do know Bill Troop who designed it. He used chemistry that optimizes fixing rate and wash rate as outlined by Grant Haist but never used by Kodak. Bill did a fine job IMHO. I do not know the formula of TF4.

PE
 

OldBikerPete

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Always filter your fixer (and other solutions as well) immediately before use. I use Melitta coffee filters from the supermarket.
 

fschifano

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Always filter your fixer (and other solutions as well) immediately before use. I use Melitta coffee filters from the supermarket.

Why? If the precipitates go back into solution upon mixing or dilution to working strength there appears to be no reason for it. In fact, I'd think the opposite would be true. By filtering out some of the components that may go back into solution, you'd be changing the composition of the final product. It may still work, though some of the intended properties of the material may be compromised.
 

john_s

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I've had Kodak and Ilford liquid black and white fixers throw a deposit after long storage. It's sulphur, and it's the result of breakdown.

Alkaline fixers don't seem to do this, for example Agfa FX-Universal lasts for years. I'm not sure about C-41 fixers that are just below pH=7 (for example Kodak Flexicolor Fixer which has pH around 6.5).
 

Photo Engineer

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Fixers decrease in stability by a predictable amount based on sulfite content and pH. Those at alkaline pH are most stable and become less stable as pH becomes more acid. It begins to become most unstable below about pH 5, and will decompose instantly on mixing below 4.

Therefore, TF4 is most stable, Kodak fix is in the middle and KRLF is least stable if everthing else were equal (they are not because each fixer has a different formula). I have seen KRLF ripoffs that were stored side by side with KRLF and the ripoff went bad before I could even use it but the KRLF is still there.

Now, this applies to both concentrate and working solution. However, some fixers come with 2 parts, and this does not hold for them. Also, the concentrate is sealed. Once opened, oxidation starts.

Sulfite is there as a preservative. It is oxidized by the air before the hypo is. It also represses the decomposition of the hypo into sulfur and hydrogen sulfide.

If sulfur forms, it can get into the film and leave trapped sulfur particles that look like fine white dust spots on the final print. They cannot be removed and that is why fresh fixer, or clear fixer is to be desired. Filtration can fix this up if you do have cloudy fix.

TF4 dissolves completely when mixed with water to make working solution.

Bottles with white sulfur scale can often be cleaned out with the use of strong sodium hydroxide (lye) solution. Protect your hands with gloves and your eyes with goggles. Add the lye solid to water when you make it up, or the solution might boil over. Never add water to solid lye.

PE
 
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