Fixer issues...

[ChristopherCoy]

I seem to be having fixer issues. Two weeks ago or so, I mixed up a fresh batch of Kodak Rapid Fixer. Poured part A into water, then vigorously stirred and poured part B in according to directions, yadda yadda yadda.

The next day I developed 4 rolls of 35mm Tri-X that I had shot in New Orleans. I'd develop, stop bath, fix according to directions. The D76, and stop bath would be thrown out, but I'd keep the Fixer as I thought you could keep it until it was exhausted. After those four rolls, I used the fixer to make maybe 5 5x7's and 4 8x10's, again saving the fixer.

So day before yesterday I decided to go back into the darkroom. Our studio has been without heat while we wait on the landlord to repair it, and so it gets down to about 60 inside at night. I poured my fixer out of the black 1 gallon jug I keep it in, and I noticed a whole bunch of floating things. It was like flakes or granules. Is this fixer that dried on the inside then got washed off when I picked up the jug to pour a new batch? Or is is solidification due to the colder than normal temperatures?

As well, I noticed that when using this fixer, after a few prints (I'd say 5 or 6 5x7's again, and three or so 8x10's), when I would turn on the lights after to check the prints, they would turn gray or bluish. I made sure to leave them in the fixer for 5 minutes or more, and put them into the sink to wash.

So my questions are:

1. Does a gallon of fixer exhaust this quickly? I would think I could get more than a few rolls of film and 20 or so prints out of it.
2. Whats causing the floaties?
3. Whats the coldest temperatures that fixer can reliably work in? (Yes I could do a hot bath to bring the temperature up, but the sink in our studio isn't large enough to hold a 1 gallon jug, and I have no way to fill a bucket except with my two cup graduate. The fixer temp was about 62)

 

[Rick A]

Answer to question 1, no the fixer should not exhaust that quickly.

Number 2, The floaties are most likely debris from improper or non existant washing of jug. This may be the cause of premature fixer death, as it may be contaminated with other chems.

Number 3, I know people who (mistakenly)keep their chems in a refridgerator thinking it will extend the life of them. Hey, it works for film... You should be able to find a hose assembly from a hardware that slips onto your faucet to make filling easier. You should mix your chems at higher temps, then let them cool to room temp for use. If your room temp is below 20c(68f) then allow extra time for proper fixing, as cold slows action.

General note about using same fixer for film and paper. You can use the same for both, but you should seperate the solution into two seperate containers and mark them paper only and film only. The fixer usually needs different dilutions for film and paper, plus you don't want to have floaties (dust paper debris, etc.)from the paper clinging to your film. Your fixer should last longer for it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Film fixer and print fixer are mixed to different concentrations. Which did you use and what did you use it on?

Did you use a stop bath in all cases with the prints?

Did the fixer smell like acetic acid at all times?

If you used the paper dilution for film, you have a possible problem. If you used a rinse after the developer, you have a possible problem.

Fixer can precipitate with cold weather and it can also form crystals when it goes bad. So, you have two possible problems.

And no, fixer should not go bad after a few days. More like a few months. But, this kind of problem is why I store my chemistry in clear bottles. It helps diagnosis. The need to use amber or black bottles for chemistry is a myth!.

PE

 

[removed account4]

i dont' know what is wrong with your fix.

you shouldn't be processing film and prints
in the same stuff. use separate batch for film / prints.

good luck

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Rick, This jug of fixer has only had two batches of Fixer put through it. Both fixers only lasted a few darkroom visits. I use the same fixer for film and paper, and mix it according to the package instructions on the Rapid Fixer box. Part A, stir, part B stir... to make one gallon. And it wasn't debris, it was more like the contents of a snow globe!

PE, yes I used stop bath in all cases with prints and film. I have the Kodak stop bath that is yellow, but turns violet when exhausted. I mix a gallon at a time according to the directions - 2oz of stop bath to a gallon of water, and I never keep it after use. For film I develop in D76 for 7 minutes (or per directions), stop for 2 mins, and fix for 5 mins. For paper, I develop in Dektol, then stop bath for a minute or so, then fix in Rapid Fixer. As for concentration of the fixer, see my statement above - I didn't know there were two concentrations.

 

[Bob-D659]

See page 5 of http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/aj3/aj3.pdf

You dilute the stock of Rapid Fixer, unlike regular Kodak fixer mixed from powder.

Store it at 68F, no colder or it will precipitate out.

Here is a real handy page to bookmark.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/prof...nks/filmDatabankChemicals.jhtml?pq-path=14330

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Nice. So I've been fixing with full strength stock solution.

What does that mean for all my negatives that I developed? The images are there and don't seem the be affected. How long will they last?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Your negatives will be fine, but the prints will be overfixed and maybe under washed. I would check for retained hypo and silver in the border of a print.

Sounds somehow as if the fixer is bad though. Try to see how much has precipitated in the jug. It could have been cold enough to precipitate out a lot of material. IDK.

PE

 

[ChristopherCoy]

I'm going to throw it out and pick up some powdered fixer on Monday... Hopefully... If the camera store finally restocked their film stuff. Otherwise it's another freestyle order.

I'm going to clean out my jug too.

 

[Bill Burk]

you shouldn't be processing film and prints
in the same stuff. use separate batch for film / prints.

To re-affirm what's been said, in case it wasn't clear.

When you fix paper, the tray gathers dust from the atmosphere and fibers from the paper etc. When you fix film, well - film is pretty clean and you do it in tanks so there's less dust contamination.

So maintaining separate bottles of fix for film and paper helps keep your film clean from specks.

 

[MattKing]

Christopher:

The Kodak Rapid Fixer is really good because:

1) It is, well, Rapid; and
2) It allows you to make the choice to not add the hardener (and most here will recommend that you not use hardener with all papers and most films).

The powder fixers take longer to do their work and, in Kodak's case, all include hardener.

If you are going to use Kodak (and Kodak choices are among those I recommend) then the Rapid Fix is best. If you need something in the short term, then use the powder fixer until you can get more Rapid Fixer (Kodak or Ilford) or Ilford Hypam.

And as others have said - mix up the stock, then prepare and use separate bottles of fixer - one diluted for and used with film, and the other diluted for and used with paper.

And have fun!

P.S. if you haven't found the appropriate instructions, just ask here - we can direct you to them.

 

[Bill Burk]

Number 2, The floaties are most likely debris from improper or non existant washing of jug. This may be the cause of premature fixer death, as it may be contaminated with other chems.

I don't think this was Christopher's problem since he said the jug was only used for fixer.

But I confirmed today that old bottles that had color chemistry in them before can leave floaties and contaiminate fixer very quickly.

Developing film today, I pulled an old plastic quart bottle to use to temper some fresh fix before pouring it in the tank. I rinsed the bottle quickly since it was in my "ready to reuse" bin. When I poured out the fix from the tank back into the bottle, I saw a few dark blue floaties in the filter funnel but the film was fine.

Feeling wiser, I used the filter funnel when pouring the fix into the tank for the second run of film. Again there were floaties. More this time.

14 minutes later I poured out the fix and saw the film was not completely cleared. So I poured fresh fix into the film tank and within a minute it cleared. I gave it 5 more minutes and then washed.

Meanwhile, I tried cleaning that brown plastic quart bottle with hot water. It smelled strongly of preservative like formaldehyde I think. I shook it vigorously and floaters and foam came out. After about six rounds of this and still foaming, I concluded that this was hopeless and chucked the bottle.

 

[George Collier]

There is another fixer option not mentioned here, and not part of your op. TF5 alkaline fixer, which can be used at the same dilution for film and fix (although some folks use separate containers, even though the same strength). It works faster, washes out more easily, and doesn't require an acid stop (some say you should not use one), but just a water rinse, moving if possible. I switched to it maybe 5 years ago after using acid fixers for 40-some years (rapid fix for the last 25) and love it.
You can find a lot of info about it by searching this thread for it. Available from Freestyle and direct from the Formulary.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just FYI, TF-5 is not alkaline. It is just slightly acidic.

PE

 

[ChristopherCoy]

I'm figuring that it has to do with the cold weather.

This is the second times its done this within a month, and both were new batches of which I had only made a few prints. As I said, our studio has been without heat so far this year while we wait on the landlord to repair it. I didn't think it got that cold in the studio at night, but apparently it does. It was 55 inside yesterday morning, when it was 28 outside. I'm going to be moving all of my chemicals back home and carrying them back and forth as needed.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It could be that in that low temperature a good portion of the chemistry precipitates at the bottom of the jug and you cannot see it due to the opacity of the jug. This lowers the strength enough to cause problems.

IDK for sure, but that is one possible explanation.

PE

 

[ChristopherCoy]

It could be that in that low temperature a good portion of the chemistry precipitates at the bottom of the jug and you cannot see it due to the opacity of the jug. This lowers the strength enough to cause problems.

IDK for sure, but that is one possible explanation.

PE

That makes the most sense at this point. If it is getting down to 55 inside the studio (which is an old house on main street that's been converted), and the fixer is stored on the bottom shelf close to the floor, where its the coldest... it would most certainly have to be temperature related.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Store some in a clear plastic bottle in the same place during cold weather to test this out, if you are interested.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Michael;

TF-4 is a uniform solution when freshly mixed. It gradually forms a precipitate on storage that is NOT related to spoilage. The TF-4 is still good. The best way to mix it is to mix the entire batch at one time, for the sake of uniformity, and this dilution will put everything back into solution. TF-4 and TF-5 have very long shelf lives both as the concentrate and as the diluted working solution.

One of the design criteria for TF-5 was to allow mixing of smaller batches of working solution without concern for uniformity as seen with making a small mix of TF-4.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Partially filled bottles of TF-4 and TF-5 have kept (unused) for up to a year. I have an unopened bottle of each stock that are 2 years + old. They have no crystals in them. I have a bottle of Super Fix VII concentrate here that is 5 years old.

Point being that fixes at pH 6 or higher keep for a looooooong time compared to more acidic fixes, like ones more acidic than pH 6. In fact, I have a jug of Ammonium Hypo that is nearly 10 years old. It is in perfect condition. It is stored at the pH that Hypo is made!

There, now I have published a major "secret"!

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I am referring to both. I used the word "concentrate" when I refer only to the concentrate.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Nah.

I try to help is all.

PE

 

[OzJohn]

PE
With your indulgence, a question related to fixers but not exactly on topic. Could you explain what causes concentrated rapid fixers in partially used original bottles to throw down a precipitate of sulphur? At various times I have had this problem with Hypam in particular but not with every batch. I seem to recall that thiosulphates break down to the sulphite and sulphur in acidic solution but I have often wondered if factors such as temperature or introduced air are responsible. I once replaced the the air in a bottle of fixer with an inert gas but it did not make any difference. I don't recall the chemistry of thiosulphates well enough to know if oxygen has any effect on them. Thanks. OzJohn

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Since I have your attention, based on the chart below from the Kodak website, is it a pretty safe assumption that HC110 Dilution B is the most 'balanced'?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Oz;

Hypo in acid solution decomposes. That is a simple answer. Sulfite retards that reaction and so among its many other benefits, it is used in fixers to retard decomposition into Sulfur and Hydrogen Sulfide.

Christopher;

HC110 is "balanced" but other developers are better. So, the answer is "it depends".

PE