Fixer for film and paper??

[GRHazelton]

I'm almost ready to resume wet work after a gap of many years. I have a question to which I feel I should know the answer, or at least where to find it.

I know that fixers can be used for either film or paper. Can the same jug of fixer be used for both, or should I keep separate stocks for film and paper? The fixer gives instructions for both film and paper. It would seem to me that using the same fixer jug for both would be okay, but I don't remember, if I ever knew. Any one out there know for certain?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bob-D659]

Usually the same concentrate, but different strength working solutions. Whatever you do, do not use one bottle of working solution for both film and paper.

 

[tkamiya]

I keep one large 1 galon jug for paper and small 1 liter jug for film. Then, I track number of film or paper processed on their labels.

Using Kodak professional fixer, recommended dilution for both paper and film are the same. Using the same bottle would mean all the contaminants will from one will get on the other. Also, it makes impossible to keep track of exhaustion. Do I know for certain? No.... but I have bottles and this system works for me.

I'm sure using the same bottle will work. I just don't know how well and neither would you... since we are unlikely to do any scientific testing. I just don't think the risk is worth the saving.

 

[Chazzy]

Even if you are using the same dilution, keep separate bottles for film and paper.

 

[GRHazelton]

Many thanks! I can certainly keep a liter separate for film, and note on a label on the bottle the number of 35mm rolls by exposure that I've run.

Its odd that I couldn't find this question answered in any of the books I have, unless I just overlooked it.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

GR

Listen to these people. They know what they are doing! Don't mix 'em!

 

[MartinP]

You easily end up with little paper fibres in the wrong places, if you use the fixer for both purposes. Plus the film fixer is often less diluted too. To check the stuff is still ok (regardless of the film-count) use a scrap of film to check the clearing time when it's fresh, then double that time in use. Keep checking during the life of the fixer and then doubling the time.

 

[fschifano]

You easily end up with little paper fibres in the wrong places, if you use the fixer for both purposes. Plus the film fixer is often less diluted too. To check the stuff is still ok (regardless of the film-count) use a scrap of film to check the clearing time when it's fresh, then double that time in use. Keep checking during the life of the fixer and then doubling the time.

And that about sums it up best. You can use the same type of fixer, and even at the same dilution, for both film and paper, but do not use the same working batch for both films and papers. Just look at the fixer in your print tray after you've used it for a while. Doesn't look so clean and pristine, does it? You want that crap all over your not reproducible negatives? I didn't think so.

By the way, one of the best fixers, and cheap too, is Kodak's Flexicolor Fixer and Replenisher. Stuff's made for C-41, but hey, fixer is fixer. I use it at 1/2 strength for both film and paper and it works just great. Only problem with the stuff is sourcing it. It can be difficult to find and more difficult to buy in quantities of less than 4 gallons concentrate. Anyway, if you can do that, the 4 gallons of concentrate will yield 40 gallons of working strength fixer for B&W work, at a cost of about $36-$40 US. For C-41, I'd follow the manufacturer's recommendation for dilution.

 

[brian steinberger]

I've also wondered the same thing about stop baths.

 

[CBG]

Stop is interchangeable. Fixer, not. Even if you fix paper with film strength fix, don't swap 'em. Film loads up fix with byproducts that are not good for paper.

 

[FM2N]

I thought that there is a difference between film and paper fix? I am under the assumption that for film it is 32oz of stock mixed with enough water to make a gallon and for paper it is 16oz plus water to make a gallon.
have i been doing it wrong? I use kodak rapid fix.

 

[dancqu]

A More Proper Paper Strength

I thought that there is a difference between film and paper fix?
I am under the assumption that for film it is 32oz of stock mixed
with enough water to make a gallon and for paper it is 16oz plus
water to make a gallon. Have i been doing it wrong?
I use kodak rapid fix.

Kodak and Ilford both suggest paper strength dilutions.
The same dilutions will also do for film but at
reduced capacity.

Film is tolerant of fixers very loaded with silver. That
is the reason for less dilute film fixers. If you'd like
cleaner negatives use paper strength for film.
Reduce capacity by 50%. Dan

 

[Ian Grant]

An issue with using Rapid fixers and Papers is over-fixing causes image bleaching particularly with warm-tone papers, this happens far faster at the film strength dilution which is a major reason Paper fixer is diluted further, although the more concentrated fix can be used but with very short fix times.

Ralph Lambrecht has measured image bleaching taking place after 4 minutes fixing and from experience it can happen faster with warm tone papers used with warm tone developers and fresh fixer.

Ian

 

[FM2N]

Dan,
how would I test for the right time to fix the film negs
with the paper fix dilution?
Arthur

 

[Ian Grant]

Double the "Clearing time" for a piece of film leader.

Ian

 

[dancqu]

Double + A Little More

Dan, how would I test for the right
time to fix the film negs with the paper fix dilution? Arthur

As mentioned, double the clearing time. That test should
still be valid but to be sure make it a little more than
double. As dilutions increase the chemistry's reserve
capacity declines more rapidly. At paper strength
I'd expect film fix times to be perhaps 1/4 to 1/3
more lengthy.

An extreme example is the Very dilute one-shot method
by which I use fixer. The fixer is good for only one roll.
A leader test may show it good for another roll
though the amount of good chemistry left
will not clear it.

Several years ago I ran a series of tests to determine
the minimums of chemistry needed. With my usual
500ml tank I found a dilution of 1:24 more than
adequate for any of my needs. Dan
.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

...An extreme example is the Very dilute one-shot method by which I use fixer. The fixer is good for only one roll.
A leader test may show it good for another roll
though the amount of good chemistry left
will not clear it.

Several years ago I ran a series of tests to determine
the minimums of chemistry needed. With my usual
500ml tank I found a dilution of 1:24 more than
adequate for any of my needs. Dan
.

Dan

I'm a big fan of one-shot chemistry and very interested in these test results. Is there more detail available? Do you have a test report by any chance?

 

[dancqu]

Trial and Error

Dan, I'm a big fan of one-shot chemistry and very interested
in these test results. Is there more detail available? Do you
have a test report by any chance?

Years ago I was sold on one-shot chemistry; fresh each
use, no need to test, down the drain when done, space
savings, and another advantage or two.

Via testing the paper's and film's chemical needs I came
to workable minimums. A simple but time consuming
task. At end for fixer I was testing full unexposed
120 rolls; worst case. I established the minimum
chemistry need for a film when results gained
within 10 minutes showed a clear colorless
film strip. For a margin of safety I up the
amount a very little and give the film
a few extra turns.

One must trust one's own procedures when using
fixer in this way. Silver levels are too low for iodide
tests and as mentioned the clip test would not work.
Perhaps accurately done tests of the film itself.
I've settled on clear, colorless, + a small
margin of safety. Dan