Fixer concentration and time

Sciuridae

A
Sciuridae

  • 0
  • 0
  • 3
Takatoriyama

D
Takatoriyama

  • 4
  • 1
  • 69
Tree and reflection

H
Tree and reflection

  • 2
  • 0
  • 63
CK341

A
CK341

  • 3
  • 0
  • 70
Plum, Sun, Shade.jpeg

A
Plum, Sun, Shade.jpeg

  • sly
  • May 8, 2025
  • 3
  • 0
  • 105

Forum statistics

Threads
197,626
Messages
2,762,101
Members
99,424
Latest member
photopoetic
Recent bookmarks
0

lauffray

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
214
Location
Montreal
Format
35mm
Another question from my session last night !
I had a big batch of film to develop and short on fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer) I used a 1+9 dilution instead of the usual 1+4. Ilford recommends that for film 1+4 always be used.

1- Is there a significant effect on fixing film when using a lower concentration ? I gave the film twice the usual time I fix with 1+4

2- The logical next question from above, is there such a thing as overfixing film ?

My understanding is that unlike developing fixing is a reaction that should 'finish', that is remove all silver and once that is done and the reaction stops there is no harm from having it soup longer. But a friend of mine argues that other chemistry in the fixer can actually harm the stability and the silver that's developed.
 
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
72
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Format
Medium Format
you should be fine at that point, especially with the higher dilution. I wouldn't do past 15 min in that dilution, past 10 in standard dilution. I don't have the scientific background but at that point your film will be fully fixed for sure and isn't too much past recommended times
 
OP
OP
lauffray

lauffray

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
214
Location
Montreal
Format
35mm
Thanks everyone

RTFM.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf
I'm using 1:9 always.

"For use as a fixer in paper processing machines ILFORD RAPID FIXER is diluted 1+4 with water but for manual fixing applications it can be diluted either 1+4 or 1+9."
Material Dilution Time (minutes): RC paper 1+9 (1), FB paper 1+9 (2).

The question is about film though...maybe you should RTFQ :wink:
 

Wayne

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
3,583
Location
USA
Format
Large Format
RTFM.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf
I'm using 1:9 always.

"For use as a fixer in paper processing machines ILFORD RAPID FIXER is diluted 1+4 with water but for manual fixing applications it can be diluted either 1+4 or 1+9."
Material Dilution Time (minutes): RC paper 1+9 (1), FB paper 1+9 (2).

You are apparently overlooking this part:

"For all film fixing applications ILFORD RAPID FIXER is diluted 1+4 with water."

The part you quoted applies to paper. Having 2 fixer dilutions on hand also reduces the temptation for using the same solution for both prints and film
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,025
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
You know that fixer is intended to be re-used until it loses capacity and/or becomes saturated with silver?

The data sheets will indicate how many rolls you can fix in a given quantity of fixer.

Whatever you do, you need to perform regular clip tests, and understand that diluting the fixer won't increase the capacity.

IIRC, Photo Engineer (who co-designed TF-5 fixer) has recommended against using more dilute fixer.

Try my approach with your dilute fixer, but do a clip test with 1 + 4 fix first: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,025
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
Thanks, but I don't get what the point of step 2 is ? If at step 3 you're immersing the film in the same fixer you're testing ?
Different enough, in that the second bath is at least a little bit fresher, because it hasn't been depleted by the film that you are currently fixing.

The biggest reasons for splitting it in two are that:
1) you know that the second bath starts out just as "fresh" as the first bath when you use it and, more importantly,
2) this approach incorporates a clip test for every roll fixed and the clip test is performed at the exact same time and on fixer that is just as fresh as the fixer being used.
 

Ko.Fe.

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,209
Location
MiltON.ONtario
Format
Digital
Thanks everyone

The question is about film though...maybe you should RTFQ :wink:
I see. Somehow I read it several times and didn't get it.

Film is easy. Just use test strip to find out how long it takes to clean and multiply by 2.5-3.
And if film appears underfixed it is re-fixable right away or later.
I'm using 1:9 mix after single print session to fix bunch of films. It takes 5-9 minutes, depends on film.
Just did it two days ago.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
3,569
Location
Eugene, Oregon
Format
4x5 Format
1) The concentration will affect both fixing times and capacity
2) Yes, with an acidic rapid fixer there is such a thing as overfixing. Proper fixing involves the removal of silver halides which were not developed into metallic silver. If you keep going far beyond that point, the fixer will gradually start to bleach the metallic (image) silver also.

To add to Michael's post (quite) a bit.

Using Rapid Fix 1+9 with film works fine, but does reduce capacity/volume and increase the fixing times. Some years ago I experimented with using dilute fixer and communicated with the Ilford tech lab and others at the time. Long story short: there is a range of dilutions where fixer works well. Too dilute and too concentrated and the fixing will be inadequate. 1+9 is about as dilute as I found to work well and still be practical. Higher dilutions (as I understand what was communicated to me) risk interrupting the fairly complex chain of reactions that change the silver halides into soluble compounds by not supplying enough ions at the right place at the right time. Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 is the "sweet spot" for film and this is the dilution I use most. However, when I have just a couple of sheets I need to develop, I can still get a good fix by using 1+9 and save a little fixer in the process, since I use my fixer one-batch always. (Too concentrated fixer will not fix well at all; it needs the water.)

Both capacity and fixing times for more-dilute-than-usual fixer can and should be determined by a standard clip test. Just so you don't have to look it up, here's the best practice for doing the clip test: The entire test should be done in good illumination. Place a drop of fixer on a small piece of film and wait 30 seconds. Then immerse the entire piece in fixer, start your timer and agitate. Keep an eye on the place where the drop was; it'll clear first, with the rest of the film 30 seconds behind. When the film clears to the point where the place you put the drop and its surrounding area are indistinguishable, note the time. This is the clearing time. It is important to benchmark the clearing time for your various films in fresh fixer (and for each dilution you plan to use). Do the clip test and write them down

Do a clip test before each batch of film. Use a minimum of 2x +10% of the clearing time as your fixing time (this changes as the fixer loses activity with use, so keep an eye on this). When the clearing time of the used fixer reaches 2x that of fresh fixer, it is exhausted and needs to be replaced. Many use two-bath fixing for prints; I advocate it for film as well if you have a large volume. Search for two-bath fixing if you're interested.

Caveat: if you fixed a lot of film in weak fixer, you could have easily exceeded its capacity. If you've still got the fixer, do a clip test and compare it to fresh fix. If you have exhausted fixer, you should likely re-fix the negatives in question (the fraction of the batch you feel you've underfixed plus a buffer).

A note on fixing time for film: film is coated on a waterproof base that does not absorb fixer. Extending fixing time past the minimum determined by the clip test does no harm up to a certain extent, eve with acidic rapid fixers. Ten minutes is about the limit here. Much more than that, and the image will start to bleach a bit. That said, a tiny bit of image bleaching is often inconsequential with negatives. Still, it's better to stay under the 10-minute mark. Many recommend a standard five or six-minute fixing time for film in rapid fix, and use the clip test only to determine when the fix needs to be discarded. I am one of those :smile: So, even if my film clears in 45 seconds, I still fix for 5+ minutes. This not only ensures adequate fixing with a generous safety factor, it also helps get rid of the pink tinge that a lot of modern (esp. Kodak) films have.

Just an aside about manufacturers' recommendations, etc. Yes, they are best and safest practice. However, there are other ways and one does not have to slavishly follow directions if one knows what one is doing. (If you don't, then by all means, "RTFM," but if you do, then it's up to you to make the best choice for your situation). I find calling people to task for not following directions, especially when there was little choice but to do otherwise not only rude, but closed-minded. The OP's question indicated an unusual situation, not necessarily sloppiness.

Best,

Doremus
 

oldche

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Near Chicago
Format
35mm
Another question from my session last night !
I had a big batch of film to develop and short on fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer) I used a 1+9 dilution instead of the usual 1+4. Ilford recommends that for film 1+4 always be used.

1- Is there a significant effect on fixing film when using a lower concentration ? I gave the film twice the usual time I fix with 1+4

2- The logical next question from above, is there such a thing as overfixing film ?

My understanding is that unlike developing fixing is a reaction that should 'finish', that is remove all silver and once that is done and the reaction stops there is no harm from having it soup longer. But a friend of mine argues that other chemistry in the fixer can actually harm the stability and the silver that's developed.
I've developed data on clearing times vs. concentration for Ilford rapid fixer and HP5+, also for Tmax 400. I've been using a one-time two-bath approach at 1:14 dilution, but I think I can go more dilute. If you are interested I can post some data.
 

Leigh B

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
2,059
Location
Maryland, USA
Format
Multi Format
I've developed data on clearing times vs. concentration for Ilford rapid fixer and HP5+, also for Tmax 400. I've been using a one-time two-bath approach at 1:14 dilution, but I think I can go more dilute. If you are interested I can post some data.
You can never recommend a dilution greater than that recommended by the manufacturer unless you claim to have greater knowledge of the product and the process than the manufacturer has.

If you do, kindly present your credentials for public review.

- Leigh
 

Gerald C Koch

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
8,131
Location
Southern USA
Format
Multi Format
To relieve any worries test for residual silver with Kodak ST-1.
 
Last edited:

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,833
Format
Hybrid
to make sure you fixed "enough"
do a clip test and make sure you fix your film
for 2x the time it takes to clear the film
to clear film base, whether that is split between 2 baths or one bath/
also make sure you do a clip test before you put ay film though your fixer
so you don't over saturate your fixer with silver. when it taxe 2x the original clear time
to clear the scrap of film, the fixer is saturated with silver and should not be used.

i would use the concentration of fixer the manufacturer recommends, no idea
what using the weaker dilution would do to your film. you might contact the manufacturer
to ask, and if you do, please report what they say back to this thread.

thanks !
( and good luck ! )
john
 

oldche

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
29
Location
Near Chicago
Format
35mm
You can never recommend a dilution greater than that recommended by the manufacturer unless you claim to have greater knowledge of the product and the process than the manufacturer has.

If you do, kindly present your credentials for public review.

- Leigh

Leigh, I respectfully disagree with some elements of your post. First, in general I disagree with your premise that someone can't make a recommendation unless they have a "greater knowledge of the product and process than the manufacturer" in a global sense. I believe anyone can make a recommendation on something as long as they have some reason for that recommendation. For example, they may have done experiments and found a behavior in a narrow area which the manufacturer may not have investigated, or may have many years experience following a procedure that differs from the manufacturer's standard recommendation, and yet had good results. Secondly, I actually didn't make a recommendation, I specifically said that I had developed some data, that I was following a certain practice, and I could post the data if someone wanted to see it. What prompted my posting at all was the hope that someone would be interested and give me some feedback on what I thought I was finding out. Third, your last comment asking me to present my credential for public review implies that only those with adequate credentials (judged by what standards I don't know) can make valid recommendations. That I certainly don't agree with. An opinion really shouldn't be judged solely by the fact that an "authority" pronounced it, that goes against the whole idea of scientific method. I have chemical engineering degrees from Princeton and MIT, 36 years of experience in industrial research, and 50 years experience as an amateur photographer, which I think are credentials enough to do some simple experiments on how fixer might be used in a certain way. However, I may be wrong in what I'm doing, and have enjoyed learning new things from people who just got into photography. It is always good to have an open mind and to respect that fact that nearly anyone can teach you something.
 

Leigh B

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
2,059
Location
Maryland, USA
Format
Multi Format
I have chemical engineering degrees from Princeton and MIT, 36 years of experience in industrial research, and 50 years experience as an amateur photographer, which I think are credentials enough to do some simple experiments on how fixer might be used in a certain way.
That would certainly qualify you to do some valid testing and analysis.
Please understand that you're one of very few participants with such a background. We do have one other that I know of.

I'd be interested in seeing your results.

My comments are directed at our average member.
Obviously the underlying assumptions are not valid for all cases.

- Leigh
 

RalphLambrecht

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,576
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
Another question from my session last night !
I had a big batch of film to develop and short on fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer) I used a 1+9 dilution instead of the usual 1+4. Ilford recommends that for film 1+4 always be used.

1- Is there a significant effect on fixing film when using a lower concentration ? I gave the film twice the usual time I fix with 1+4

2- The logical next question from above, is there such a thing as overfixing film ?

My understanding is that unlike developing fixing is a reaction that should 'finish', that is remove all silver and once that is done and the reaction stops there is no harm from having it soup longer. But a friend of mine argues that other chemistry in the fixer can actually harm the stability and the silver that's developed.
Have believe deals for the instructions of correct one plus for is the correct dilution for fixing film. However, there is such a thing as over fixing film. Is fixed for too long, shadow details will suffer. On the other hand, it takes quite a while to do so. If you stick to Milford's instructions, it will be fine. Best fixing is achieved by a two-bath fixing method. I believe That under fixing film is far more likely and common than over fixing it. It is much better to fix strong and fast than to fix week and long. This is true for film and paper.
 

Slixtiesix

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
1,393
Format
Medium Format
1) The concentration will affect both fixing times and capacity
2) Yes, with an acidic rapid fixer there is such a thing as overfixing. Proper fixing involves the removal of silver halides which were not developed into metallic silver. If you keep going far beyond that point, the fixer will gradually start to bleach the metallic (image) silver also.

Does that mean that overfixing is less of an issue with neutral/alkaline fixers?
 

Pat Erson

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
336
Format
35mm RF
My photo teacher (who in the mid-80's did film developing and FB printing for a major German photographer) was big on fixing films at 1+9.
So you should be fine as long as you use your fixer one shot.
I never followed his advice though... I use the 1+4 dilution for my films.
 

Leigh B

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
2,059
Location
Maryland, USA
Format
Multi Format
Have believe deals for the instructions of correct one plus for is the correct dilution for fixing film.
Pardon me, Ralph...

But is that supposed to be an English sentence?

- Leigh
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom