Fixer and Stop bath - quality differences?

I know what they are for and wondered why some have better reviews than others - how can difference in quality be determined?

While we at it, how often can fixer and stopper be used if stored properly (closed lid bottle, no bubbles etc)?
Thanks.

1. Because people see differences even if they cannot be quantified (element of delusion); although objectively some fixers of course will be faster to fix than other, while some will be alkaline, some acid and each of former and latter will have certain preferred applications. but really, the truth is that if you're developing ordinary films and papers using ordinary developers ... no-one will notice a difference in results from using one fixer over another, and certainly no difference in results from using different stop baths

2. Read the instructions that come with the fixer and stop. No reason why anyone here will know any better than the manufacturer.

The endless threads about chemistry can be a bit like the endless threads about cameras and lenses. Unless you are controlling every single part of your process from beginning to end almost under laboratory conditions, so that not a single variable ever changes, the chances of your seeing a difference from using a different developer or fixer somewhere in the process, in a 10x8 you hang on your wall is pretty small.

pdeeh said:

... no-one will notice a difference in results from using one fixer over another, and certainly no difference in results from using different stop baths

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... or not using them! (wink)

pdeeh said:

No reason why anyone here will know any better than the manufacturer.

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Great truth!

pdeeh said:

The endless threads about chemistry can be a bit like the endless threads about cameras and lenses. Unless you are controlling every single part of your process from beginning to end almost under laboratory conditions, so that not a single variable ever changes, the chances of your seeing a difference from using a different developer or fixer somewhere in the process, in a 10x8 you hang on your wall is pretty small.

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"Endless threads" is quite too little! & "Pretty small" is quite too much!

LAG said:

... or not using them! (wink)

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I only realised recently there are some people who don't use stop. To each their own - but stop bath to me is the single least bother of all the processing steps, and I can't see a reason not to. It tells you when it's not working any more (provided you get indicator stop), it has all the environmental impact of lemon juice, and costs peanuts. What's not to like?

So, to address the OP at least tangentially - the answer to your question for working-strength stop bath is "pretty much forever, and if you get an indicator stop (which you should) it'll even tell you when it needs replacing (by changing colour)".

... However, my comments above were written thinking only about the fabled "image quality" aspect of goodness.

I've just been reading this thread which turned up when I was looking for something else:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

And it reminds me that for some people, archival quality for both print and negative matter too, and that stop can matter.

It's definitely worth a read, even if some of the more esoteric stuff about dielectric constants and whatnot fly over one's head a bit. As they do over mine tbh

There are roughly 5 types of "stop bath":
1) running water wash - needs to be very thorough, not as quick, doesn't adjust ph, always available to most;
2) alkaline stop bath - relatively rare;
3) common acid without indicator stop bath - think household vinegar or citric acid powder - easy availability, no indicator, often more expensive;
4) acetic acid based indicator stop bath (like Kodak) - often cheapest, highly concentrated stock, keeps well even if mixed to working strength, stronger odour;
5) citric acid indicator stop bath (like Ilford) - nearly as cheap as Kodak, not quite as concentrated, doesn't keep well once mixed to working strength, much less of an odour.
I use Kodak for film, Ilford for printing - all because of the smell.

LAG said:

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I was going to recommend their version of Creep. Then I realised I was thinking of Parralox. Worth it anyway!

Odot said:

I know what they are for and wondered why some have better reviews than others - how can difference in quality be determined?

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Not so much difference in quality, but difference in characteristics.

Fixers come in "conventional" and rapid versions and acid, neutral and alkaline versions. Generally today, a rapid fixer (ammonium-thiosulfate-based) is preferred for modern films and for speed when fixing papers. If you process fiber-base prints, an alkaline or neutral pH fix will speed wash times. Since you live in Germany, you're likely to be using Ilford or Tetenal products. Both are good. I tend to like Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam without hardener.

As for stop baths, Matt has outlined it nicely above. But to simplify a bit: widely available stop baths are either acetic-acid-based or citric-acid-based and come with or without indicator (the orange color that turns blue when the stop is exhausted). Citric-acid stop baths do not keep long in working solution; they grow mold/bacterial sludge. I mix only as much as I need for each session and discard. The stock lasts a long time though. Acetic-acid stop baths will last till they are exhausted in working solution (see if you can get your hands on Kodak Indicator Stop Bath there in Germany...). The Tetenal stop is citric acid too, I believe.

Odot said:

While we at it, how often can fixer and stop bath be used if stored properly (closed lid bottle, no bubbles etc)?
Thanks.

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Do read the instructions that come with the products you are using. Pay attention to "capacity" and "shelf life." Fixer goes bad due to age even if it isn't used. Storage conditions determine how long it will last. Capacities for how much film/paper you can fix with a given quantity depend on the materials used and the fixer dilution.

Stop bath with indicator lasts till the indicator starts to turn from orange to blue. Don't wait till it's changes a lot; toss it at the first sign of color change.

And, please do read the instructions that come with your chemicals.

Best,

Doremus

pdeeh said:

It's definitely worth a read ...

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Wow, 22 pages since 2005 (with subliminal advertising included! ...) It was worth reading indeed, I appreciate that, and I have learned something interesting pdeeh! when I clicked the link I found that the reading was only 6 pages, due to the fact that you attached a "print version", and that made my reading easy(instead of clicking it 22 times) thanks!

Anyway, too many pages, too many thoughts for me while reading, too many ideas to express for and against! To sum up, it is a curious thread for pulling statistics out of it.

There is another stop bath for fibre prints that I use, a dilute solution of sodium metabisulphite. I consider it more compatible with my home made fixer (sodium thiosulphate plus sodium sulphite). The downside is that it smells of SO2 and I recommend it only if (1) it's used in a vertical slot processor, and (2) if ventilation is effective in taking the odour away.

I used to use running water as a stop but I found that it had to be very thorough indeed to avoid a possibility of later staining.

I used to use as a fixer the various C41 fixers (neutral or close to neutral) (Agfa, Kodak, Fujifilm) because they were cheaper and smelled less, but they have become scarce and expensive in my neck of the woods since the demise of colour print film.

pdeeh said:

but really, the truth is that if you're developing ordinary films and papers using ordinary developers ... no-one will notice a difference in results from using one fixer over another, and certainly no difference in results from using different stop baths

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+1

The only case I know where stop bath and fixer may have an visible impact is lith printing.

LAG said:

due to the fact that you attached a "print version

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Oh that's interesting.
I did not do so intentionally, but I keep seeing apug pages pop up as "print versions" when searching sometimes and I can't work out why.
But better not to derail the thread with a discussion about browsers.