Fix for film and paper

[CMoore]

Is it reasonably possible to make something like Ilford Rapid Fix, or any other that will fix both Film and Paper.
What would those chemicals be.?
I did some Reading/Research, and i see Sodium Thiosulfate is often a main ingredient. Does anybody have a recipe that has been successful.?
Thank You

 

[CMoore]

Yeah...Thanks.
My edition of "The Cookbook" is #2..... Lots of those formulas (I Think) are or have a hardener.....can you simply exclude "the hardener".?
It does list the recipe for TF-3, and i think i will give that a shot.
Ilford Rapid Fix is the most "smelly" thing in my darkroom, and that does not have much of an odor. I have a feeling that TF-3 will be a bit stronger.?
Anybody know if ...The Darkroom Cookbook #4... is any much different from #2 as far as Fix Formulas are concerned.?
Thanks Again

 

[MattKing]

You will probably find that with the possible exception of the simplest, slowest fixer (not necessarily the most practical recommendation for many modern films) the cost of the necessary ingredients is often higher than buying fixer pre-made.

 

[CMoore]

You will probably find that with the possible exception of the simplest, slowest fixer (not necessarily the most practical recommendation for many modern films) the cost of the necessary ingredients is often higher than buying fixer pre-made.

Oh Wow.....had no idea...have not even looked into price yet, as i was not really sure what to buy. Thanks Matt.
I will certainly investigate. I guess i THOUGHT it would be cheaper to make it, based on the the fact that a gallon of Ilford Rapid is pretty heavy, and weight means shipping cost. Plus a gallon jug is fairly big as well.
Anyway......i do not doubt you are correct, but i will just take a quick look anyway.
Thank You

 

[Anon Ymous]

You will probably find that with the possible exception of the simplest, slowest fixer (not necessarily the most practical recommendation for many modern films) the cost of the necessary ingredients is often higher than buying fixer pre-made.

This may, or may not be true, depending on the availability and pricing of raw materials and the rapid fixers themselves. In my case, the price of Ammonium Thiosulfate solution (bought as fertiliser) is much cheaper than an equivalent amount of ready made rapid fixer. The extra ingredients I need cost pennies.

 

[MattKing]

This may, or may not be true, depending on the availability and pricing of raw materials and the rapid fixers themselves. In my case, the price of Ammonium Thiosulfate solution (bought as fertiliser) is much cheaper than an equivalent amount of ready made rapid fixer. The extra ingredients I need cost pennies.

This is most likely correct, but you should note that the Ammonium Thiosulfate solution is only available as a liquid, and in many jurisdictions may very well be difficult to obtain from a fertilizer source due to anti-terror (I believe) restrictions on availability.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Matt, that would be true for ammonium nitrate, because it can be used as an explosive. I don't think that ammonium thiosulfate has any restrictions imposed. Anyway, shops specialising in fertigation would be possible sources of this solution.

 

[MattKing]

Matt, that would be true for ammonium nitrate, because it can be used as an explosive. I don't think that ammonium thiosulfate has any restrictions imposed. Anyway, shops specialising in fertigation would be possible sources of this solution.

You are correct about there not being any restrictions, although I note that the suppliers I can find on the internet seem to require really, really large orders!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Is it reasonably possible to make something like Ilford Rapid Fix, or any other that will fix both Film and Paper.
What would those chemicals be.?
I did some Reading/Research, and i see Sodium Thiosulfate is often a main ingredient. Does anybody have a recipe that has been successful.?
Thank You

this is not recommended because, film fixing leaves some contaminants, which are counterproductive fr print longevity. You are better of having separate fixing solutions for film and paper.

 

[Anon Ymous]

You are correct about there not being any restrictions, although I note that the suppliers I can find on the internet seem to require really, really large orders!

See, that's the funny thing: I can walk into a shop and buy this solution, but there are no shops selling photographic chemicals of any kind nearby. The nearest would be > 350km away...

 

[Rudeofus]

@CMoore : there are dozens of public fixer formulas, accumulated over well over more than hundred years of silver halide based photography, and most will work well within their limits for most photographic products you can buy today. Could you please specify in some detail, what you are trying to accomplish here? What are the typical amounts of film/paper you process per month/year? Do you process your film/paper in small batches on a regular basis, or in larger batches with some weeks in between? Do you look for concentrates and/or working solutions with higher capacity, better performance, or longer shelf life, or just lower cost? Do you have cost effective access to raw chemicals? Are you equipped and ready to mix from raw ingredients?

PS: Some people commented, that you shouldn't use the same fixer for film and paper. Note, that this applies only to working solution, you can definitely use the same fixer product/formula for both film and paper as long as you keep working solutions separate.

 

[CMoore]

Yes, Film and Paper.....as in 1:4 and 1:9...not fixing both with the same liquid.
Other details.?
Like i said, just something similar to Ilford Rapid Fix.
Cost.? If the chemicals to make a gallon are not all cheaper than buying a gallon of Ilford from B&H.........
My Developer and Fix spend 2-5 days in a tray and then they are gone. I change my stop every day.
I am just one guy with a typical B&W, 35mm photo hobby. I am not cranking out photos on a daily basis.
Thank You

 

[Rudeofus]

The bulk of Ilford's, and anybody else's rapid fixers is Ammonium Thiosulfate, and this ingredient will likely determine single handedly the cost of your final product. If you can get Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% solution for less than you pay for the same volume of rapid fixer (don't forget shipping costs! ), then you can make a solid case for self mixing, see comments from Anon Ymous here. Likewise, if you can find a very cheap source for Sodium Thiosulfate, then self mixing of paper fixer makes economic sense.

Since this decision seems to hinge on local circumstances, you have to dig up the numbers for yourself. If you plan on self mixing, take a close look at Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fixer formula. If you are ready to self mix more intricate formulas, look at Rowland Mowrey's Superfix I formula. With cheap Sodium Thiosulfate available, take a look at Ole's Quick Fix (OF-1).

 

[EdSawyer]

Probably the cheapest and most efficient way is to use C41 film fixer. It can work for B&W film and also paper, just vary the dilution ratio. It's one of the cheapest fixers out there. PE posted dilutions for using it with other than C-41 film at one point. (The C41 dilution from the fixer concentrate is 1:4 with water, other uses like B&W film would be higher concentrations)

 

[Cholentpot]

Yes, Film and Paper.....as in 1:4 and 1:9...not fixing both with the same liquid.
Other details.?
Like i said, just something similar to Ilford Rapid Fix.
Cost.? If the chemicals to make a gallon are not all cheaper than buying a gallon of Ilford from B&H.........
My Developer and Fix spend 2-5 days in a tray and then they are gone. I change my stop every day.
I am just one guy with a typical B&W, 35mm photo hobby. I am not cranking out photos on a daily basis.
Thank You

I fix in 1:9 for film, sometimes I'll mix a batch of fix and only get around to doing a handful of prints. I rebottle and use for film. This is using Ilford rapid fix.

 

[removed account4]

hi cmoore
i use sprint fix it comes in a cube and is dilute 2:8 for film and prints
i strayed once and got tf4 or 5 and it reeked of ammonia so much i diluted it
and had my waste hauler take it away, unused ...
i guess i could make my own but it would cost more in effort and cost, and storage
to buy raw ingredients in the bulk quantities needed for such an order ...
so once a year i buy a cube from sprint and it works great ...
i sometimes get hypo rice by the lb, from add o ramma it cost less to get it from them than
from anyone else ...

 

[CMoore]

I did a search for Sprint Fix but could not find anything.
What is your recipe when you buy the Hypo Rice.?
Thank You

 

[removed account4]

I did a search for Sprint Fix but could not find anything.
What is your recipe when you buy the Hypo Rice.?
Thank You

http://sprintsystems.com/
regarding my recipe for hypo,

its about 20-24% ... when i make it i don't put anything else in there, just sodium thiosulfate and water ...

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/plain-sodium-thiosulfate-fixer.78672/

 

[RPC]

Probably the cheapest and most efficient way is to use C41 film fixer. It can work for B&W film and also paper, just vary the dilution ratio. It's one of the cheapest fixers out there. PE posted dilutions for using it with other than C-41 film at one point. (The C41 dilution from the fixer concentrate is 1:4 with water, other uses like B&W film would be higher concentrations)

I recommend this as well. Versatile and economical. If you want to mix your own, there is a formula on this site somewhere.

 

[bdial]

The C-41 fix is a good alternative for economy if you use a lot, I'm not sure about other suppliers, but the Kodak product comes in 5 gallons of concentrate. It will make quite a lot of working solution. Though, at today's shipping prices, shipping 5 gal of concentrate will probably be a bit dear, not that shipping 1 gal or 5 liter quantities isn't.
I bought mine through a local camera shop so they could include it with their regular orders of chemistry.

Note that if you go a DIY or other non-standard method like the C-41, you will want to do residual silver tests to nail down your fixing time, especially for paper, since you can't see when it's fully fixed.

 

[darkroommike]

this is not recommended because, film fixing leaves some contaminants, which are counterproductive fr print longevity. You are better of having separate fixing solutions for film and paper.

What Ralph said.

It's possible to make a fixer that will fix both film and paper but even if you use the same formula for both you should not use the same working solution for both film and paper. Fixing film puts different by products into the fixer than does paper fixing. My rule of thumb is to use fixers for no more than 20-25 rolls per quart/liter or in the case of paper fix 20-25 8x10 prints. I put tally marks on my film fixer, one mark per roll of conventional film and count each Tmax roll as two convention rolls of film, Tmax type films are harder on fixer and their by-products exhaust fixer more rapidly so I make two hash marks per roll when fixing one of these films. I can easily exhaust a liter of paper fixer in a single session so dispose of the working solution after the session.

I don't use nor recommend hypo checking reagents, these things can only tell you when the fix has gone bad, not that it will go bad soon. If you want to test, use your film leader, write down the time it takes your film fixer to clear a piece of film when fixer is fresh, when the clearing times get twice that long it's time to mix new fixer.

 

[howardpan]

In one of the community darkrooms here in Taipei, I believe we mix our own fixer directly from hypo (sodium thiosulfate) and sodiumbisulfite. When purchased in small quantities, we can mix 2L of working solution fixer for about USD 2.75. I believe the formula is similar to Looten's acid hypo formula:

Acid Hypo
(J. Ghislain Looten)

Water at 125F/52C, 2.0 liters
Sodium thiosulfate, 480.0 g
Sodium bisulfite, 45.0 g
Use undiluted.

Hypo can be purchased in sizes of 25kg bags (instead of the 500g quantity I quoted above) so I believe our actual cost is much lower. There was also a discussion earlier pertaining to this subject including various tests that one should perform to establish the operating parameters.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/a-simple-fixer-formula-any-opinions.43162/

Personally, I prefer and use Ilford's Rapid Fixer. When I'm printing in the darkroom, I hate waiting for the fixing step to complete. If I go work on something else while the paper sits in the fixer, I worry that I over fix so I pay a little more for Ilford Rapid Fixer and try to make sure I make good use of it before throwing it away.

 

[Bill Burk]

this is not recommended because, film fixing leaves some contaminants, which are counterproductive fr print longevity. You are better of having separate fixing solutions for film and paper.

Good point.

I use Kodak Rapid Fixer for both film and paper, but once it comes out of the Kodak bottle, it's either film or paper fix from that point forward. In other words the stock solution's the same, but once it's mixed, it's dedicated to one or the other purpose.

 

[mike c]

I stopped using the same working solution of fixer for film and paper when I discovered paper fibers indebted in the emulsion of the film, I do use used film fixer for paper with out any problems. I use two fixing baths for paper

 

[Rudeofus]

If you can store 5 gallons of C-41 fixer, then yes, this is probably the best and cheapest fixer you can get for both film and paper. Due to its neutral pH both concentrate and working solution will last forever.

One thing you have to look out for, though, is how C-41 fixer handles unhardened films. Most films from big brand manufacturers are prehardened from the factory, and can withstand C-41 fixer without problems, but this is not necessarily the case with unhardened film stock from small, artisan type film makers, or if you have very, very old film stock. Whenever you process important shots on less established film/paper stock, run one unimportant roll/sheet through that fixer before. Note: just because you don't know the film brand doesn't mean it is unhardened: some small brand products are coated in the facilities of big name factories and therefore hardened just as well as big name products.