Five 35mm SLRs, One Second

I picked up a Nikon F2 (SB, with working metered prism!) today from a local classified posting. Everything seems to work fine, except for the 1/1 second shutter speed. Maybe the other slow speeds are off by a bit, but I can't say for sure. Going by comparison to a 'known good' SLR with electronic shutter speed control. Honestly, for what I paid, I would've been surprised if everything had worked properly.

So, long story short, I started comparing the 1 sec. exposure times of all my 35mm SLRs:

• Minolta XD-7 (electronic, fresh batteries, user, nice) - seems right on
• Minolta SR-T 101 (mechanical, ancient shelf queen) - matches XD-7. Had previously thought that the 1 sec. speed was slow on this body, because I was comparing it to the...
• Nikon FM (mechanical, user, nice) - fractionally shorter than the XD-7. Tripped simultaneously with XD-7, the FM's 2nd curtain seems to close completely just as the XD-7's 2nd curtain begins to descend.
• Nikon F3P (electronic, awaiting CLA) - matches XE-7
• Nikon F2SB (mechanical, awaiting CLA) - Around 1/4 sec. slower than XD-7 or F3P. Timer sound changes pitch toward end of exposure.

After this test, I am left with two questions.

1.) What's up with the FM? I've heard some compare its shutter accuracy unfavorably to the FE. If the 1 sec. speed if off my a small amount, is it likely that the other speeds are fractionally faster as well? Would calibrating the shutter on an otherwise perfectly functional FM be a big job for a camera tech? Or is it likely to be as simple as tightening/loosening a screw somewhere inside? (I'm not going to touch it myself; I don't have an accurate shutter speed tester.)

I'm thinking that I'm going to get one of the Nikons serviced now, and do the rest later. They were all cheap and all have seemingly small faults. The F2 has the slow 1 sec. speed, the F3 shutter is probably capping as the exposure darkens by about half an EV on the right 1/3rd of most frames. So as long as I'm not going too far over a couple hundred dollars for each, I'd rather have them serviced than continue to buy/check/return replacements until I get a good one. This leads me to my other question..

2.) Out of the F3 and F2 (and FM - although that's a lower priority), which would the collective wisdom of APUG advise me to get serviced first? I'm thinking in terms feasibility and cost. I'd rather get the easier/faster/cheaper fix and tune-up done first. My gut feeling is that the F2 is going to cost more and take longer to fix up than the F3. I've been thinking about sending it to Sover Wong, and I bet that takes a decent chunk of time and money, but I'll get it back in overall better condition, probably with more than just the one fix. The F3 is a more modern camera, and so I figure that there are more techs who can work on it. It's the P model, though, so the waterproofing lube and gaskets may be a PITA and therefore expensive and time-consuming to fix up. Although just re-timing the shutter should be... relatively easy and cheap?? I'm not sure if it really needs anything else. And finally, I'm not sure the FM would be worth it to fix at all.

Oh, and besides Sover Wong, does anyone have a tip for where to send these cameras for the work? KEH charges $275 flat rate for SLR service, which I think would be little steep for the F3 and FM. I can of course ship anywhere, but if there was something good in Central Texas that a user just so happened to know of, I'd love to hear about it!

I think you worry too much... 1/4 sec slower in the 1sec speed is just fine, for me.

What is important is to make sure there is no shutter bounce and/or lack of exposure uniformity at the top speeds.

As for service, service first the camera you like to use more. I, for example, don't care too much for the F3, while there are people who love it.

yessammassey said:

The F3 is a more modern camera, and so I figure that there are more techs who can work on it. It's the P model, though, so the waterproofing lube and gaskets may be a PITA and therefore expensive and time-consuming to fix up.

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That's a strange assumption.

For a tech, these are all similar cameras (of course, the electronic ones in one camp vs the mechanical ones in the other)

APUGuser19 said:

....but just keeps on working--the Nikkormat.

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The Nikkormat FTn, my first in 1969 and still my "go to" camera! What is more, other than service (seals & mirror foam) never a day without it and never missed a beat!. A truly superbly crafted & reliable unit! Fred

APUGuser19 said:

The Nikon F2 will always be the finest Nikon, and the one to have serviced. But since I haven't the money to have a camera serviced, I settled on the brand that doesn't need service, but just keeps on working--the Nikkormat. I got old holding possessions in line for the day when I could afford service.

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I bought a Nikomat FTN (japanese model) last week and i was surprised that the machine worked perfectly with a smoothness that was better than both of my F2 cameras. Of course the F2 are better internally, but the mechanical feel of this Nikomat was just perfect.

Hi,
If the time is off for any of those models it's likely because of age or condition not design. MF SLR's with non-electronic shutters commonly had two shutter mechanisms for controlling the shutter speeds, often one was 1 sec thru 1/30 and the other 1/30 and higher. It's fairly common that with age the slower speeds are no longer accurate. I never heard of any specific problems related to Nikon products.
Rick

Shutter speed tolerance is 20% for speeds 1/125 and slower, 30% for speeds 1/250 and faster. This translates to 1/3 stop either side of perfect. For 1 second its .8 to 1.2 seconds.
I work on leaf shutters regularly and this should apply to focal plane shutters as well. Hold the shutter so that you can see it and the second hand of a watch or clock at the same time. Release the shutter just as the second hand reaches a second mark, the shutter should close just as the second hand reaches the next second mark. The second hand width on most clocks/watches either side of the next second mark is in tolerance. Set the shutter to 1/2 second and repeat. Perfect is the center point between second marks with 1/2 the second hand width either side of center in tolerance. 1/2 second tolerance range is .4 to .6 second.

Read through this thread at Photo.net http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/0044cW
Mine are the last two posts on page 2 and the most up to date. The KYphoto link shows the tester they made for 35mm cameras. Inexpensive, easy to build, and accurate.
Tolerances http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm
Exposure time and aperture are the same for all formats.

Nikon service manuals http://arcticwolfs.net/

Because the FM has a COPAL vertical travel shutter and the travel time adjustment is actually inside the
shutter assembly it's going to be the hardest to fix.

Either the F2 or F3 are easier to adjust. The F3 capping is just an adjustment of travel time and the F2
will be cleaning & lube on the curtain pivots and slow speed escapement. Both are relatively easy
to work on and adjust.

Sooooo, the question is: which one do you like using best?

Since you live in Central Texas, I can recommend the people I use here in Houston: Professional Camera Repair. They're no-nonsense, reasonalby priced, and fast. I don't know if they do work by mail, but I don't know why they wouldn't.

http://www.professionalcamerarepair.com/

Oh, and I'd have the F2 given a CLA cuz it's probably way overdue for one. Then you'll have one of the world's best cameras for regular use for the next couple of decades.

If you compare a FE to a FM the overall shutter speeds are not much different and of course it depends mostly on condition. The 1 sec shutter speed the FE almost always beats the FM because electronically controlled shutter has no problem with slow shutter speed. At high shutter speed the shutter curtain travel time becomes the factor that affects the accuracy of the shutter speed. And this shutter curtain travel time is purely mechanical on all cameras that I know of.

Old mechanical camera speeds drift over time. Unless your shutter speeds are way out or sticking however, it's easier (and cheaper!) to adjust development times than have a service. Apart from shooting chromes you probably wouldn't notice any difference between perfect and actual times anyway. Generally speaking, shutter speeds will all be slightly slow with age, which is easy to compensate for - just reduce development fractionally until you're happy with exposures.

In my experience battery powered electronic shutters go out of sync less frequently than spring powered mechanical varieties. Even in new condition, magazine tests showed higher speeds to be optimistic on many cameras, especially once they got faster than 1/1000.

Yeah, I'm just going to live with it. I've got an F3P that needs some work, and an F2 that does also. I've been trying to decide which one to send out first for a professional restoration, but now I'm thinking that it'll be the F3. That way, I'll have an electronically-controlled camera to use for chromes. The F3 has a very center-weighted meter pattern, though, almost like a spot meter. Guess I'm going to be getting familiar with the zone system.

blockend said:

Old mechanical camera speeds drift over time. Unless your shutter speeds are way out or sticking however, it's easier (and cheaper!) to adjust development times than have a service. Apart from shooting chromes you probably wouldn't notice any difference between perfect and actual times anyway. Generally speaking, shutter speeds will all be slightly slow with age, which is easy to compensate for - just reduce development fractionally until you're happy with exposures.

In my experience battery powered electronic shutters go out of sync less frequently than spring powered mechanical varieties. Even in new condition, magazine tests showed higher speeds to be optimistic on many cameras, especially once they got faster than 1/1000.

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Weirdly enough, the 1 second time on my FM is faster than on other, newer electronic cameras. But is the mechanism that times slow shutter speeds separate from the one that controls the faster speeds, on an FM? If that were the case, I guess my faster speeds could still be ok/slow/fast.

yessammassey said:

The F3 has a very center-weighted meter pattern, though, almost like a spot meter.

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That is precisely what I like most about the F3. Its 80/20 centerweighted pattern. Back when I shot lots of film, I shot lots of chromes, and fed lots of them through my F3. Set to "A" with that metering pattern, I got to where I took for granted that my exposures would always come out. I was surprised at first, but then I just got to where I could depend on it.

Oh really? I definitely like the almost-spot meter on the f3, but I figured that for shooting chromes in complex lighting situations, one would need to at least get one secondary reading from a bright background, for example.

When I was most active with my F3, all I shot was chromes and I did mostly outdoor stuff. Sometimes the light would be kinda tricky, but with the F3's tight pattern I found I could usually move the camera around a bit to secure a good reading. But to be honest, most of my shooting was on the fly. I specialized in motorsports photography and attended a lot of airshows, so I didn't have much time to react to unusual lighting situations. But the F3 seemed to always handle them just fine.

cooltouch said:

That is precisely what I like most about the F3. Its 80/20 centerweighted pattern. Back when I shot lots of film, I shot lots of chromes, and fed lots of them through my F3. Set to "A" with that metering pattern, I got to where I took for granted that my exposures would always come out. I was surprised at first, but then I just got to where I could depend on it.

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Agree! There were some things I did not like about the F3 (that's why i sold mine), but the meter pattern was very good. Very easy to obtain well exposed pictures with that meter.

What did you not like about it?

I bought one, thinking it would be a good field use, general purpose 35mm camera, including for portraits and events, but I'm finding that I can pick up an N80 or other later model AF Nikon and get much better flash operation.

I like the f3 because it has great manual focusing with the HP finder, and mirror lock up, and I could see the 80/20 meter being very useful for portraits especially. the only downside with my 'P' model is that I'd need the auto winder to get remote release for long exposures.

But maybe instead of fixing up the F3 and shelling out for the giant power winder, I should instead get a plastic AF camera. It's just that none of them (except the f4/5/6) have mirror prerelease/lock up, as far as I know. And no matrix metering with my manual focus lenses.

Is there a cheaper Nikon 'plastic fantastic' that has a notably well-damped mirror and can do center-weighted AND spot metering with manual lenses? And has an available split-image focus screen for manual lenses, or at least digital focus confirmation with manual lenses?

yessammassey said:

Oh, and besides Sover Wong, does anyone have a tip for where to send these cameras for the work? KEH charges $275 flat rate for SLR service, which I think would be little steep for the F3 and FM. I can of course ship anywhere, but if there was something good in Central Texas that a user just so happened to know of, I'd love to hear about it!

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yessammassey said:

What did you not like about it?

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Mainly, the tiny "+/-" display for manual operation. It is too small, too tiny. Also the display of the shutter speeds was not so clear on low light. Of course the camera has an illuminator -- with a button awkward to touch and which usually fails on many F3 cameras (mine, for example). AE lock button fell (i bought it without the button, another common F3 problem). Then the meter on mine died with no reason at all (i live in a high humidity city). Another friend of mine purchased a F3 secondhand; all electronic speeds died although the meter works (the opposite of how my F3 ended).

The F2 with the DP-1 meter has such a clear display of aperture, shutter speed, and meter needle that really embarrasses the F3. Seriously, try one.

More things i don't like? Shutter button response was too mushy, you never felt the triggering point, while on the F2 you can feel exactly the triggering point. I also did not like the fact that the manual shutter mode is only 1/90 and requires a separate trigger release.

Everybody raves about how smooth is the film winding on the F3 but at the same time the winding lever sits loose and all F3 cameras i've tried have this loose winding lever, feels like it's gonna unscrew itself.

Things i did like were the weight, the ergonomics (except for the problems above) the metering (when it worked) and the automatic mode (useful), the smooth shutter and mirror action, easy screen change, and the good looks. I had many focusing screens that now i adapt to the F/F2 cameras by replacing the frame.

In the end i sold the F3 as part payment for buying myself the main competitor to the F3, which is the fantastic, reliable, all-conquering, glowing, quick, comfortable, loving, beautiful, sexy CANON NEW F-1. The New F-1 does not have a smooth winding action (quite the opposite), and does not have OTF flash metering, but in all respects is superior, sometimes far superior. For example the viewfinder and viewfinder indication is the best i've seen on any SLR, and if your battery dies you remove the battery and the camera can work B, 90, 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000 speeds mechanically using the same shutter button, which changes in "feel" (becomes harder) to remind you that you're in the mechanical mode.

yessammassey said:

Is there a cheaper Nikon 'plastic fantastic' that has a notably well-damped mirror

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Nikon N80 has remarkably smooth shutter and mirror action.

shutterfinger said:

Shutter speed tolerance is 20% for speeds 1/125 and slower, 30% for speeds 1/250 and faster. This translates to 1/3 stop either side of perfect. For 1 second its .8 to 1.2 seconds.
I work on leaf shutters regularly and this should apply to focal plane shutters as well. Hold the shutter so that you can see it and the second hand of a watch or clock at the same time. Release the shutter just as the second hand reaches a second mark, the shutter should close just as the second hand reaches the next second mark. The second hand width on most clocks/watches either side of the next second mark is in tolerance. Set the shutter to 1/2 second and repeat. Perfect is the center point between second marks with 1/2 the second hand width either side of center in tolerance. 1/2 second tolerance range is .4 to .6 second.

Read through this thread at Photo.net http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/0044cW
Mine are the last two posts on page 2 and the most up to date. The KYphoto link shows the tester they made for 35mm cameras. Inexpensive, easy to build, and accurate.
Tolerances http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm
Exposure time and aperture are the same for all formats.

Nikon service manuals http://arcticwolfs.net/

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This is great info that I am sorry that I somehow overlooked earlier. (Posting and reading threads from my phone a lot lately)

I will be taking a closer look at the 1 and 1/2 sec speeds on my FM using this method. I hope and expect that they will be within the tolerances you state.
...
Regarding the reliability of older mechanical cameras like the nikkormats, I honestly don't like the around-the-mount/lens shutter speed dial. Not sure why, just a personal preference I guess. It's one of the reasons I went with Nikon instead Olympus 35mm SLRs. But in terms of older, cheaper mechanical SLRs, my Minolta SRT101 has been quite reliable.