First time doing lith printing with "regular" chemicals/paper...Can it be done?

BSP · Feb 15, 2020

I would like to get a feel what the mystery of lith printing is all about. And I would like to start with my regular chemicals.
I was thinking going about it as follows:

use old, almost spent Ilford MG developer so that it is not too active - maybe even dilute it a bit more with water
expose Fomabrom paper 3 times as I would normally do with a contrast filter 3.5
develop by inspection (probably the hardest part) and pull the paper from the developer and swiftly get it into the stop
fix as usual

Would this approach likely result in something that even resembles what a "real" lith print looks like?

tezzasmall · Feb 15, 2020

From my little bit of experience of lith printing as well as further reading, I take it that one HAS to use a paper that is 'lithable' and again, the developer has to have certain properties.

So, if I'm correct, no you won't get a lith style picture.

You'll probably get something, and experimentation is great,so give it a go and see.

Terry S

Bob Carnie · Feb 15, 2020

BSP said:
I would like to get a feel what the mystery of lith printing is all about. And I would like to start with my regular chemicals.
I was thinking going about it as follows:

use old, almost spent Ilford MG developer so that it is not too active - maybe even dilute it a bit more with water

expose Fomabrom paper 3 times as I would normally do with a contrast filter 3.5

develop by inspection (probably the hardest part) and pull the paper from the developer and swiftly get it into the stop

fix as usual

Would this approach likely result in something that even resembles what a "real" lith print looks like?

Short answer NO.
Long answer is that one requires the right chemicals to create infectious development that then can be controlled by a snatch point.

ic-racer · Feb 15, 2020

Lith developer is not expensive and will last for years if the two parts are kept separate. Most papers on the market will not have a pleasing effect. So, as Bob already mentions, you need more stuff. But the correct paper and developer are not hard to find and not expensive.

The way you state your question makes me think the person from whom you learned Lith. did not teach you right.
Dilute Lith. developer is used because the standard strength is so active, the process takes place too quick to get good results. Your full-tone developer is already too weak by comparison to Lith. developer. So, by diluting it or using old developer, you will be essentially duplicating conditions to make low contrast prints; the exact opposite of what is needed.

BSP · Feb 15, 2020

Thanks guys, I think I understand the concept a bit better now and will try and get some lith developer and suitable paper.

@ic-racer The person that tried to teach me about lith was ME so no harm done...
@Bob Carnie Reading you clearly!
@tezzasmall Thanks for your feedback.

As a result I have stumbled onto https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/ which seems to carry all the stuff I need, including helpful documents to learn more about the new rabit hole I am about to fall into

Bob Carnie · Feb 15, 2020

BSP said:
Thanks guys, I think I understand the concept a bit better now and will try and get some lith developer and suitable paper.

@ic-racer The person that tried to teach me about lith was ME so no harm done...
@Bob Carnie Reading you clearly!
@tezzasmall Thanks for your feedback.

As a result I have stumbled onto https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/ which seems to carry all the stuff I need, including helpful documents to learn more about the new rabit hole I am about to fall into

Moresch is your best resource and the chemicals I use for doing lith

koraks · Feb 15, 2020

BSP said:
use old, almost spent Ilford MG developer so that it is not too active - maybe even dilute it a bit more with water

A lith developer contains only hydroquinone and a small amount of sulfite (it therefore doesn't last long when made up for use). All normal paper developers use several developing agents which precludes infectious development. Regular paper developer, no matter how old, will therefore not lith.

expose Fomabrom paper 3 times as I would normally do with a contrast filter 3.5

No contrast filter is usually needed when lith printing. Contrast is controlled by the combination of exposure and development. Fomabrom does lith, but does not produce very pleasing results IMO under most circumstances. Fomatone however is an excellent lith paper and perhaps the best one on the market at the moment (certainly the easiest to get nice results with in my experience).

BSP · Feb 16, 2020

I love to learn and this is the best place with good people

tezzasmall · Feb 16, 2020

I bought and used not that long ago a Fotospeed Lith kit, which gave me some quite dramatic results very quickly, but it doesn't seem available new anywhere, any more.

I've also tried making some Lith developers from scratch, but with not a lot of success so far.

I've heard good things about Moersch products, but just looking again, I can't seem to find any 'obvious lith quality prints' amongst the galleries. A lot of coloured brown prints, but nothing that I associate with 'classic lith'.

Hopefully in the near future I will return to my experiments, as I still have some of the kit left, along with Tim Rudmans lith book.

Terry S

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 16, 2020

This recent thread could be of interest to you:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-stop-worrying-and-love-modern-papers.172809/

mooseontheloose · Feb 28, 2020

tezzasmall said:
I've heard good things about Moersch products, but just looking again, I can't seem to find any 'obvious lith quality prints' amongst the galleries. A lot of coloured brown prints, but nothing that I associate with 'classic lith.’ Terry S

Hi Terry - just curious as to what you consider ‘classic lith’ - since lith colours run from gritty blacks to peachy/salmon reds and everything in between, what is the classic combination?

Lachlan Young · Feb 29, 2020

tezzasmall said:
I bought and used not that long ago a Fotospeed Lith kit, which gave me some quite dramatic results very quickly, but it doesn't seem available new anywhere, any more.

I've also tried making some Lith developers from scratch, but with not a lot of success so far.

I've heard good things about Moersch products, but just looking again, I can't seem to find any 'obvious lith quality prints' amongst the galleries. A lot of coloured brown prints, but nothing that I associate with 'classic lith'.

Hopefully in the near future I will return to my experiments, as I still have some of the kit left, along with Tim Rudmans lith book.

Terry S

Easylith very much delivers the classic 'lith' look with Fomatone much more automatically than LD-20 in my experience.

BSP · Feb 29, 2020

My regular dealer (Retrocamera Belgium) is having some trouble getting me a Moersch EasyLith kit....I'll give him another week but then I will have to shop elsewhere (Foto Impex Berlin)

BSP · Mar 1, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Easylith very much delivers the classic 'lith' look with Fomatone much more automatically than LD-20 in my experience.

Would that be Fomatone variable of fixed grade paper?

RauschenOderKorn · Mar 1, 2020

koraks said:
A lith developer contains only hydroquinone and a small amount of sulfite

and at least one alkali (typically a carbonate or a hydroxide or TSP)

There are also more complex formulas, but that is the minimum needed.

koraks · Mar 1, 2020

BSP said:
Would that be Fomatone variable of fixed grade paper?

I don't think a fixed grade fomatone paper exists.

RauschenOderKorn said:
and at least one alkali (typically a carbonate or a hydroxide or TSP)

There are also more complex formulas, but that is the minimum needed.

Yes, indeed. And some bromide or chloride is usually also needed to get infectious development.

BSP · Mar 1, 2020

Thanks guys....I just ordered some Moersch Easy Lith and Fomatone MG Classic paper.
Can't wait to get started with this.I already have some negatives in mind that I would like to start with.

koraks · Mar 1, 2020

That combination will work with relative ease, have fun!

Oxleyroad · Mar 1, 2020

BSP said:
Thanks guys, ...

As a result I have stumbled onto https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/ which seems to carry all the stuff I need, including helpful documents to learn more about the new rabit hole I am about to fall into

BSP I use Moersch products over here in the US. I find they work well the Foma papers, very differently with Ilford papers, but my dwindling old stock of Agfa paper from the 80s-90s is gold with it.

grainyvision · Mar 4, 2020

I've done a lot of research on lith developer formulation... Overall conclusion is that hydroquinone is a hard requirement and super-additive developers almost never are suitable. Basically a super-additive HQ developer functions by converting hydroquinone to HQMS and HQMS to the superadditive agent (ie, metol or phenidone). In both cases the sulfite and hydroquinone are used up, the two absolutely essential components of a lith developer.

I have formulated a special lith printing developer I dubbed "ModernLith" which will work with modern papers, including Ilford MGFB (note: heating is required to prevent snowballs). However, it currently requires mixing a developer by hand from raw chemicals. I am considering selling a simplified formula kit in the traditional A+B setup within the continental US, but that's at least a few months away if I determine there is enough interest. The formulas and results can be seen here: https://grainy.vision/modernlith

BSP · Mar 4, 2020

I fear that if the Lith-bug bites me using the Moersch Easy Lith and Fomatone your enticing report of mixing modernlith at home will get me addicted for sure. I would probably be very interested in your A+B packaged Modernlith but not being based in the US would probably make this impractical. Thanks for your addition to this thread, research and great write-up on Grainy Vision.

Bill

koraks · Mar 4, 2020

Bill, fortunately the more lithable papers such as fomatone work great with simpler developer formulas tha are available in convenient concentrates or that can be compounded diy from 3 easily available ingredients. Earlz' very interesting solution is mostly relevant for getting good lih results from papers that are generally not considered usable for lith (which, of course, is a very nice addition to our hobby).

ic-racer · Mar 6, 2020

Have you tried it yet? It is very fun, I think. In fact when teaching my kids to print, we frequently did Lith prints. For a couple reasons. First, we did not need to worry about exposure time. Second, it was very intuitive for the kids to just watch the prints develop and snatch them out when they looked good. It is a lot of fun with the correct paper and developer. Each one is a little different which adds to the excitement.

grainyvision · Mar 6, 2020

A good starting point for anyone wanting to try out lith printing with modern papers, and also has access to the essential chemicals

1g hydroquinone (can be dissolved 10% into a shelf stable propelyne glycol solution for easier usage)
1g sodium sulfite
0.5g potassium bromide (increase to 1-2g of bromide for old lithable papers or if the paper develops faster than 5 minutes)
12g potassium (or sodium) carbonate
1L of water

developer will be a bit slow, 10-15 minutes with most papers. Also it will die quickly, about 1 hour tops until various problems start to occur such as streaks of blacks, pepper fogging, etching, and weak contrast. The primary thing I’ve done in my modern lith series of formulations is to extend the tray life of such a developer to 2-3 hours

First time doing lith printing with "regular" chemicals/paper...Can it be done?

BSP

tezzasmall

Bob Carnie

ic-racer

BSP

Bob Carnie

koraks

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BSP

tezzasmall

Raghu Kuvempunagar

mooseontheloose

Lachlan Young

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koraks

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BSP

koraks

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Oxleyroad

grainyvision

BSP

koraks

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ic-racer

grainyvision

First time doing lith printing with "regular" chemicals/paper...Can it be done?

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