First time developing E6 (Lots of questions)

[clingfilm]

Hey guys -

First of all I must apologise if anyone is annoyed that I'm going to ask so many questions in one thread - I know someone warned not to do it last time because it makes searching more difficult but I feel it's the tidiest way to get all my questions out in a short period of time and helps with giving context to the folks answering.

I've noted which parts of my explanation are relevant to the different questions so hopefully this helps : )


So here's the situation;

~16 rolls of E6 (3 Precisa, 13 fujichrome V50/100+P100F, 9 35mm, 7 120mm), developing in Tetenal's 2.5l '3' Bath Kit, in a Jobo processor (with broken rotary drive and possibly questionable temperature control).

All the film was fresh and has been shot over this summer, with some rolls being shot back in June (i.e. longest time since exposure will be 3 months). They have been refrigerated before shooting and then as soon as possible after (no longer than a month out of the fridge for any rolls), and none have been subject to great amounts of heat.


The 2.5l tetenal kit will be bought from the lovely NT PhotoWorks and is presumed fresh. I will be mixing it in 2 batches (mix 1l and then mix a second batch of 500ml when the first is spent) into the glass bottles with a little pump system for removing the air from the bottles; both sold by NT PhotoWorks here. I will mix all chemistry at home using this water and some funnels/measuring cylinders I can find somewhere. [1] [2]


I am processing it at a darkroom using their JOBO rotary processor. The processor is used for C41 (and possibly B&W)[3] processing however I will be using 600ml storage bottles that aren't used very often for the storage of my chemistry. The processor automatic tank rotation is knackered so we just do it by hand[4]. Temperature is kept stable but doesn't match what's on the dial - you just have to use two thermometers in different parts of the bath and keep fiddling with the dial until it stays at the same temperature (38 °C) for a few minutes.

I plan on decanting 500ml of my solutions from the glass bottles into the three bottles and then taking those small bottles with me to the darkroom[5] (to save lugging the glass bottles around). I will develop six rolls of film[6] (adjusting times up to the 6 roll mark)[7], dump the used chemicals, and refill the 600ml JOBO bottles to start again until all rolls of film are developed[8][9][10] - all rolls will be developed in the span of one week.[11]


In the interest of saving time, this guide makes some reasonable adjustments to the process suggested by Tetenal (namely, shortening the pre-wash to 1 minute and lowering the temperature of the wash before the stabiliser) however, to be safe I plan on following the advice given in the Tetenal leaflet; is this necessary?



Questions

1. How accurate do you have to be while mixing up partial batches?
   • It says in the Tetenal instructions that mixing the chemistry "requires special accuracy"; is the closest millilitre 'special' enough?
2. How readily are the chemicals contaminated? Which ones should I be most careful with?
   • It says in the instructions the FD should be mixed and sealed in an airtight container before the CD concentrate is opened as vapours can contaminate the FD - I plan on following this advice.
     
   • How careful must you be once the concentrates are sealed and you're just using the working solutions? Do you have to worry about this while actually processing film?
     
   • Will the wine-air-remover thing contaminate my FD by transferring gas from the CD to the FD bottle?
3. How readily do C41 and B&W chemicals contaminate E6 chemistry?
   • Is a wash/scrub of measuring cylinders etc. in hot water enough to ensure no chemical transfer can happen?
   • The darkroom uses specific funnels for B&W, should I avoid using ones for specific chemicals (e.g. is fixer more likely to kill developer than stop)?
   • I know that hand tanks etc. are fine with using different developers but how can I properly wash out the internal piping of a JOBO processor? Just run hot water through it a few times?
4. Does this kit work with constant agitation in the JOBO processor?
   • The instructions give the agitation pattern for hand processing (i.e. constantly for first 15 seconds, then every 15 seconds) but for the JOBO processor I need to constantly agitate
5. Is 500ml enough liquid to cover to the centre of the film reels during processing?
   • The C41 kit I've used in this processor has ~550ml in each bottle but using 500ml for my E6 kit makes the proportions easier for me - is this going to be enough to make sure all film gets developed?
6. If I develop the first few rolls on their own (one at a time) will this prevent me from getting 6 rolls out of my kit?
   • In the tetenal instructions it says that 'to obtain maximum yield' you must develop at least 2 rolls during each developing run however...
   • It would be nice to have practice runs at the start, only risking 10 photos for these tests.
   • If I develop a roll on its own does this mean I would only get 4 more rolls out of that 500ml of developer (essentially, treating single rolls developed as being equal to two rolls)
7. Using my method I will use the same 500ml of chemicals and adjust development times until reaching 6 rolls and then - after dumping the chemicals for a fresh 500ml from the glass bottles - return back to the original development times with fresh chemistry - is this ok?
   • Do 120 and 35mm rolls (36 exp.) use up the same amount of developing potential? (i.e. is development of 3 rolls of 120 equal to development of 3 rolls of 35mm?)
   • If the tank contains the 2nd and 3rd roll of film to be developed (for example), which adjusted time do I use? The one for '1-2 rolls' or the one for '3-4 rolls'?
8. What is the development time for Fujichrome films (and Agfa Precisa)?
   • NT Photoworks suggests adding a minute to FD time (and this is also backed up by the E6 guide) however this isn't mentioned anywhere in the Tetenal instructions?
9. How quickly do you have to progress from emptying the FD/CD out of the developing tank to washing the film?
   • The tetenal instructions talk about the listed times for each bath as follows; "time represents first contact with bath to contact with next bath"
   • Does this mean I should have totally emptied the FD out of the developing tank and be ready to start pouring the washing water just before my timer goes off
   • or does it mean I must empty out the FD quickly when the timer goes off and then start a new timer and add water?
10. Can I pour stabiliser through the JOBO and just agitate within the developing tank?
    • It says in the instructions it should occur outside of the tank and some people have said that stabiliser can gunk up their reels etc.
    • Is it fine to just run the stabiliser through the JOBO and then pour it back out of the tank after a few minutes? (All equipment will be thoroughly washed with hot water after the development cycle)
11. Will freezing the left over chemical concentrates extend their life at all?
    • After this I will have enough chemical concentrates left over to make a litre of E6 chemistry which will be useful as I will also have some film left over after this project
    • I will not be shooting the film for at least half a year (possibly longer) so is there any chance I can save the remaining chemistry for when I get round to shooting again?
    • Would there be any benefit in trying to pump out the air using the wine thing?

Once again apologies for the length of this post - thank you for reading what you can, I hope you can help me answer some of these questions to make my first time go as smoothly as possible!


Thanks,

William

 

[Rudeofus]

Here are a few answers:
@1: don't worry about sub milliliter accuracy, but don't be careless either. All volumes you pour should be at least accurate down to 2-3% of their respective volume
@2: E6 CD contains a strong fogging agent and should under no circumstances get anywhere near your FD. It also contains color developer, so don't get it into your BLIX either. Work cleanly but don't get OCD over it. A thorough wash of each container is enough to make it usable for each other process fluid.
@3: see above. If you washed these containers you should be fine. If the C-41 CD leaves a brown residue, you can clean it out with strong acid. If the B&W fixer left black stain, use that container for your BLIX.
@4: yes, it does
@5: this depends on your film tank. 500ml will work fine with a 1520 + 1530 combo, which fits 6 rolls of 135 or 120 film. A 1520 tank alone needs only 250ml with rotary processing.
@6: It's always a good idea to try a freshly mixed batch with a less than crucial roll of film first (this has saved me from lots of lost rolls so far). You can reuse the process liquids. Since 250 ml are meant for 3 rolls, you can run one roll first, then another tank with two rolls with the same batch.
@7 yes. A 120 roll has about the same surface area as a 135 roll, but developer use obviously also depends on exposure, so there is no precise answer. With each reuse you also somewhat dilute your process liquids with carry over wash water. I would therefore use Tetenal's times for 3-4 rolls for the second run.
@8: FD times determine overall brightness and contrast of your slides, but so does FD temperature. What you should do is start with Tetenal's instructions to the letter and then modify the process to your taste. Vary only one parameter at a time. If slides come out too dark, increase FD time. This way you will get nice slides right away, and great slides as you get more experienced with your exact setup.
@9: process step times are meant as "time the process liquid is in contact with the film". If a process step is meant to last 7:00, and pouring takes about 15 seconds, then start pouring out at 6:45 and pouring in at 7:00.
@10: i have read many postings claiming one shouldn't do that, but it has never caused any trouble for me with Tetenal's kit chems. My impression is that issues used to arise with Formalin in stabilizer bath, and Formalin was known for its tendency to polymerize. Apparently they have found new ways to prevent Formalin from doing this, and most problem reports seem to be from old ages.
@11: I have read advice against freezing but in favor of putting them in the fridge. Also make sure you add inert gas to opened containers of FD, CD1, CD2 and BX2. BX1 (the red, somewhat oily liquid) and STAB don't need protective gas.

One final piece of advice: extend the wash times between BLIX and STAB to at least 10-20 minutes, and wash with warm water. The wash water can have any temperature between 30 and 45 °C. You can open the film tank for this final wash so dumping and refilling is faster, and you don't have to agitate all the time. You will notice, that even after 10 minutes your wash water will be light red if you let the tank sit for a few minutes in warm wash water. This is sensitizer dye and should be washed out completely before you STAB.

Also, make sure you mix STAB with distilled water and shake off all wash water before you immerse a roll in STAB. Carryover wash water will bring water hardness into your STAB, and this will leave dry marks if you are not careful. And don't even think about washing after STAB, this would leach out the antibacterial compounds brought in with STAB, these compounds protect your slides from fungus.

 

[clingfilm]

Here are a few answers:

Thank you so much for all your answers, it's cleared up a lot : )


I shall extend the final water wash to 10 minutes and I plan on mixing all chems with distilled water!!


I've got a few follow-up questions just to clarify points you made;

2.
so each piece of equipment that comes into contact with the chemicals will get a thorough clean with hot water and wiped down, that should be fine. But what about the inside of the JOBO or processing tank? Should the washing stages take care of any chemistry still hanging around in the machine?

5.
If my tank fits, in theory, 6 rolls of film can I develop all 6 with a development time for 'fresh' chemistry? Or should I use the time I would use if I was developing my 6th roll?
6.
So I would still be able to get 6 rolls out of 500ml of solutions, even if I developed the first two rolls in two separate baths (on their own)?
11.
how long do you reckon I could store the chemicals in working order in the fridge? I assume anything just above freezing would be ideal? Is there anything cheaper than protectan for expelling air?

 

[Sirius Glass]

As noted above, always make sure that your processing equipment is very clean.

Temperature is important. If you question the temperature stability, use an accurate thermometer to monitor the temperature until you can trust your Jobo.

Yes, let the Jobo constantly agitate the film.

 

[clingfilm]

As noted above, always make sure that your processing equipment is very clean.

Temperature is important. If you question the temperature stability, use an accurate thermometer to monitor the temperature until you can trust your Jobo.

Hey Sirius, thanks for your response (I seem to have been quite blessed to have both of you guys show up to help in my thread )

But what does 'very clean' mean? Like, the chemicals are supposed to be water soluble so if I use plenty of hot water and give it a scrub surely that must be fine? How do I get the inside of the JOBO totally clean between baths? Will the rinsing steps be sufficient water to get any remaining FD/CD out of the systems?


Do you have any ideas about how well the temperature of the water in the JOBO equates to the temperature the chemicals will be inside the tank?

I was planning on starting the process when the JOBO has held (for a few minutes) a bath temp of 38*C and once I have made sure all the chemicals (with a thermometer devoted to separate chemicals) are at 38*C.

I was also thinking a big box of water (15 litres or something) for the washing stages because it'll be a quick source when I need it and it should hold its temperature quite well! What do you think of this as a plan? Do you think any plastics from boxes could leach into warm water and affect film development?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Color chemistry contains many organic chemicals that can react with grunge on the surface or in the actual plastic material of film tanks if you don't keep them clean. Cleanliness is most important in the development stage either by use or carryover of chemistry. The rest of the steps are not as important as long as the washes are efficient. The final rinse is very critical as it acts to stabilize the images. With all E6 films, you must have formalin somewhere in the process. Both Fuji and Kodak include this chemical, but other manufacturers often do not.

PE

 

[clingfilm]

Color chemistry contains many organic chemicals that can react with grunge on the surface or in the actual plastic material of film tanks if you don't keep them clean. Cleanliness is most important in the development stage either by use or carryover of chemistry. The rest of the steps are not as important as long as the washes are efficient. The final rinse is very critical as it acts to stabilize the images. With all E6 films, you must have formalin somewhere in the process. Both Fuji and Kodak include this chemical, but other manufacturers often do not.

PE

Aaaannnddd there's the trifecta - thanks for chiming in PE, your input is always appreciated : )

So I don't need to worry about contamination of BLX and stabiliser as long as I have done the washes, but from what you say I should take special precautions to try and protect the CD and FD from contamination? FD shouldn't be too bad as I can make sure all equipment is thoroughly washed before beginning my procedure but I'm not sure how to properly protect CD during my developing?


Do you know (or do you know somewhere I could find out) if the Tetenal kit contains formalin? I've read your post on stabilisers and enjoyed your thoroughness; I understand the importance of making sure the film is stabilised sufficiently, so I'd like to try and do this as properly as possible : )


Finally, if you've got the time, could you comment on whether my plan for 6 rolls in 500ml is alright? I'm not going to deplete my chemistry unexpectedly using the above method?

 

[Photo Engineer]

I cannot help you with the Tetenal kit. Sorry. I can say that using a blix is not a good idea with any color film! That is why Kodak and Fuji use the processes they do.

All developers should be protected from contamination.

PE

 

[Rudeofus]

I shall extend the final water wash to 10 minutes and I plan on mixing all chems with distilled water!!

That will work, but is not necessary. All bathes in these kits contain a sequestering agent for water hardness and can therefore be mixed with regular tap water, except for the STAB. Sequestering agents wouldn't help with STAB, since it's the final rinse after which the film dries. It doesn't much help, if CaCO3 drying marks are replaced with Ca-EDTA drying marks, so STAB has to be mixed with water that doesn't contain Ca2+/Mg2+ to begin with - i.e. distilled water.

so each piece of equipment that comes into contact with the chemicals will get a thorough clean with hot water and wiped down, that should be fine. But what about the inside of the JOBO or processing tank? Should the washing stages take care of any chemistry still hanging around in the machine?

Yes, the washing stages will take care of any contaminations left behind by the previous process step. After everything is finished, clean all equipment with warm water and be done with it. Be extra thorough, but not obsessed, with cleaning all containers coming in contact with CD.

If my tank fits, in theory, 6 rolls of film can I develop all 6 with a development time for 'fresh' chemistry? Or should I use the time I would use if I was developing my 6th roll?

I would start with the dev time for the first roll.

So I would still be able to get 6 rolls out of 500ml of solutions, even if I developed the first two rolls in two separate baths (on their own)?

You can get 1000 rolls of film developed with 500ml if you reuse the process liquids. Obviously these liquids will get depleted and diluted with each reuse, and the results will become worse with each reuse, but these process liquids deplete and dilute slowly and continuously. To some extent this depletion and dilution can be compensated by increases in process times as written in Tetenal's manuals. Since depletion depends on slide exposure (weakly exposed slides will go easy on FD but deplete CD, and vice versa), and dilution depends on your film tanks and your pouring regime, there are no exact rules and numbers unless you determine these from your practical experience. The only reassuring thing will be that slight process imperfections generally still give nice slides, so don't worry too much at first.

how long do you reckon I could store the chemicals in working order in the fridge? I assume anything just above freezing would be ideal? Is there anything cheaper than protectan for expelling air?

From my experience you should expect about one year of concentrate shelf life in opened bottles. Working solutions will last for about two weeks. The most obvious sign of concentrate deterioration will be weakened FD giving you darker than normal slides. Also watch BX2 concentrate for yellow precipitate, which is a sign that it is toast and that the kit must be replaced.

 

[clingfilm]

That will work, but is not necessary.

Aha, ok - perhaps I was being too worrysome, I'll just buy a small bottle for mixing the stabiliser and do the rest with (filtered) tap water!

I would start with the dev time for the first roll.

If I understand correctly this also answers my previous question about what to do if the current developing session contains my 2nd and 3rd rolls of film; I should develop using the time given for 1st/2nd roll, right?

Then in my next cycle (when I might be doing my 4th, 5th, 6th roll) I should use the time for 3rd/4th roll or for 5th/6th roll?

The only reassuring thing will be that slight process imperfections generally still give nice slides, so don't worry too much at first.

So would you advise just using the times stated by Tetenal and not try to predict how much a single roll uses my developer?

what I mean is, I could either treat the single roll as it is (1 roll) and adjust subsequent developing times thusly, or I could treat all single rolls as the minimum batch (2 rolls) and adjust the future times as if two rolls had been developed..

I feel like the second option (treating the single roll as two) will lead to more noticeable over development as the 2nd roll of film will be being given adjusted time as if it was the 3rd roll when in fact it will be in chemicals that aren't quite as used up as that. Compared to how much underdevelopment will happen if I just pretend the excess dilution etc. hasn't happened and treat the one roll as a single roll.

I'm sorry, that's confusing - I hope you understand what I'm getting at : )

From my experience you should expect about one year of concentrate shelf life in opened bottles

Wow this is good news - so with protectan and a sub 5*C fridge for all concentrates there should still be life left in the chems in time for the start of next summer!!


Thanks for all your help so far Rudeofus - you've made me a lot more confident about doing this in a weeks time : )

 

[Rudeofus]

If I understand correctly this also answers my previous question about what to do if the current developing session contains my 2nd and 3rd rolls of film; I should develop using the time given for 1st/2nd roll, right?
Then in my next cycle (when I might be doing my 4th, 5th, 6th roll) I should use the time for 3rd/4th roll or for 5th/6th roll?

So would you advise just using the times stated by Tetenal and not try to predict how much a single roll uses my developer?
what I mean is, I could either treat the single roll as it is (1 roll) and adjust subsequent developing times thusly, or I could treat all single rolls as the minimum batch (2 rolls) and adjust the future times as if two rolls had been developed..

I feel like the second option (treating the single roll as two) will lead to more noticeable over development as the 2nd roll of film will be being given adjusted time as if it was the 3rd roll when in fact it will be in chemicals that aren't quite as used up as that. Compared to how much underdevelopment will happen if I just pretend the excess dilution etc. hasn't happened and treat the one roll as a single roll.

I'm sorry, that's confusing - I hope you understand what I'm getting at : )

You have to accept the fact that film development in small dev tanks is no precise science. All these color processes were designed for large tanks where a single roll has minimal impact on process liquid composition and where a system of test strips and continuously adjusted replenishment regimes ensure very consistent process parameters. There will be process variations in your small tank outfit, your process temperature will not be perfectly accurate, your timings will be a few seconds off, your process liquids will have different ages and aerial oxidation, both from their previous life as concentrates and as working solution and so on.

Whatever you do to compensate for this and that effect, there will be a reasonable degree of uncertainty in your process, and your results will still look great!

Conclusion: use the times for 1&2 for your first dev run, the times for 3&4 for the second dev run and so on. Take notes what you did and associate them with the slides you created. If they are too dark, use slightly longer FD times next time in the same situation. If they come out right, repeat what you did next time. If they are too bright, decrease FD times next time. It's really that easy, and a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.

 

[clingfilm]

Conclusion: use the times for 1&2 for your first dev run, the times for 3&4 for the second dev run and so on. Take notes what you did and associate them with the slides you created. If they are too dark, use slightly longer FD times next time in the same situation. If they come out right, repeat what you did next time. If they are too bright, decrease FD times next time. It's really that easy, and a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.

Breathing a little more easily now - I think I've just got a lot of E6 related thoughts/worries spinning round in my head at the moment.

On the first day of development I'll do 3 (maybe 4) rolls of 120 film but each on their own - I'll use the time for 1&2 for the first roll, 3&4 for the second, and 5&6 for the 3rd (and 4th if I do it) - then I can take them home and see how they look before coming in the next day to do rolls of film in batches of 2 with any adjustments from my notes : )

Ultimately I guess I'm worried about just not having useable images out of this process, at the end of the day I won't be able to tell if I have developed the film perfectly I just want something that will look like (after scanning) how it did when I took the photos. You've been a massive help Rudeofus and definitely made me more comfortable going into this than I was before. If I get any photos out of this they'll be thanks to you : )

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have to add that all films at Kodak were formulated to work in small tanks of about 2 liters with nitrogen burst or hand agitation. The scale up to large tanks involved a large math session to calculate the replenisher formulation. So, you are good to go using a small tank with non-replenisher chemistry.

PE

 

[clingfilm]

I have to add that all films at Kodak were formulated to work in small tanks of about 2 liters with nitrogen burst or hand agitation.
PE

Hmm interesting! What does 'nitrogen burst' mean?

Also, I wonder if you can give any take on this; a lot of people (JOBO included) advise extending development times for fuji films by 1 minute with this kit, but not for Kodak films. The explanation seems to be that constant agitation aerates the chems more and means you get less development - does this seem plausible?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Fuji themselves recommend this longer development time. Everyone in the industry is aware of it by now, but often the home processor has not heard of this. It is inherent in the fuji films themselves. Don't worry about it.

Nitrogen burst was the industry standard. A sparger (look it up - the picture on google is worth it) was placed in the bottom of a tank and connected to a timer and a tank of nitrogen. The gas was released evenly over the surface of the film(s) or paper(s) being developed. It was a great method for agitation. Well, it still is.

PE

 

[clingfilm]

Fuji themselves recommend this longer development time. Everyone in the industry is aware of it by now, but often the home processor has not heard of this.

The gas was released evenly over the surface of the film(s) or paper(s) being developed. It was a great method for agitation.
PE

Do you have a link for any more reading I cad do on the topic of extending development time or should I just accept I should add one minute to all FD times suggested by Tetenal?

That nitrogen thing is wild- what's the advantage over just movement of the film itself??

 

[iandvaag]

500ml will work fine with a 1520 + 1530 combo, which fits 6 rolls of 135 or 120 film

Are you sure? Jobo recommends 240mL + 330mL = 570mL. Also this combo of tanks holds 6 rolls of 120 but only 5 rolls of 135.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Please see the Fuji processing recommendations for FD development times. They have more info.

The nitrogen burst is or was an industry standard. There is no advantage over being consistent - more so than hand and the person need not be around. It is automated.

I would look at the volume info in post 17!

PE

 

[Daft Vader]

If heating and maintaining 100F is an issue and hassle during processing, you can try the following duration at 75F. Applies to 3 bath kits

FD 11:20
CD 10:30
BX 13:00

 

[clingfilm]

Are you sure? Jobo recommends 240mL + 330mL = 570mL. Also this combo of tanks holds 6 rolls of 120 but only 5 rolls of 135.

I contacted our darkroom and he said the tank does like 3 or 4 35mm rolls or only 2 120 rolls at once (or one 120 and 135) not sure if that helps you decipher the model but he said 500ml was fine?

 

[Photo Engineer]

If heating and maintaining 100F is an issue and hassle during processing, you can try the following duration at 75F. Applies to 3 bath kits

FD 11:20
CD 10:30
BX 13:00

Dear Daft! This suggestion will probably lead to off color slides with crossover. Don't do it!

PE

 

[clingfilm]

If heating and maintaining 100F is an issue and hassle during processing, you can try the following duration at 75F. Applies to 3 bath kits

FD 11:20
CD 10:30
BX 13:00

Interesting - is this from personal experience or did you find this online? I think maintaining a warm temp is ok, it's just maintaining any temperature that's the issue - with a few thermometers and some patience I'm sure I can get it to 38*C

 

[Sirius Glass]

If heating and maintaining 100F is an issue and hassle during processing, you can try the following duration at 75F. Applies to 3 bath kits

FD 11:20
CD 10:30
BX 13:00

This is a great way to get off color slides and then spawn multiple complaining threads about "How do I fix my slides after the ship has sailed out of the train station and dropped anchor down the tracks?" Either do it correctly or not at all, please.

 

[Daft Vader]

Any ISO400 silde film shot at ISO100 should be processed at 75F with a duration of 06:15 (Kodak) 07:00 (Agfa/Fuji). No? You sound like Apollo 13. Failure is not an option.

This is a great way to get off color slides and then spawn multiple complaining threads about "How do I fix my slides after the ship has sailed out of the train station and dropped anchor down the tracks?" Either do it correctly or not at all, please.

 

[MattKing]

Any ISO400 silde film shot at ISO100 should be processed at 75F with a duration of 06:15 (Kodak) 07:00 (Agfa/Fuji). No? You sound like Apollo 13. Failure is not an option.

Where did a reference to ISO 400 film shot at an EI of 100 come from? That doesn't apply to the OP's circumstances.