First Salt- muddy whites and too flat

[Neil Genower]

Hello all,
This is my first salt print: I'm relatively happy that it actually came out. However, the highlights are very muddy and the overall print too flat. I think that the negative ( digital) was not up to snuff so I'm assuming that is my major issue.
Some details on the process: Arches Platine paper; salted with 5g sodium chloride 5g sodium citrate no sizing agent; sensitized with 15% silver nitrate- exposure under 4 LED UV's for 12 mins. Two bath salt water solution (tap water) for 4 mins; plain water wash; moerch gold toner 2.5 mins; alkaline water wash 4 mins; one fixer bath for 8 mins
plain water rinse then hypo clear for 4 mins- final 30 min wash. Please note: The picture uploaded here is more contrasty than the original print !
The negative is from a digital file converted to a negative and with a Bostik & Sullivan salt print curve applied, printed normally using OES inks on a Epson R2880 on permajet digital transfer film (165 weight).
Firstly, I am trying to decide if the best negative to use is one form a large format camera (FP4 in Pyro) or a digital negative. I think the answer is both are good if they are executed correctly. For example; a digital negative if I'm using Peizography inks or QTR or one of the recognised methods. I've worked as a stills photographer for 40 years and I'd love to avoid the computer, I'm done with fiddling with pixels, so I'd like to use film but I'm realistic of it's limitations in size and portability. What do you folks find works best for you?
Secondly, I was curious to know if Potassium Ferrocyanide would work to locally brighten highlights, as one would do in a silver gelatine print?
I would be very grateful

of your opinions.

 

[Rick A]

You need to size the paper, otherwise the solution soaks into it and the texture of the paper dulls back the finish. Try sizing before you change any thing else.

 

[fgorga]

Neil,

With all due respect to RickA, I think that sizing should be close to the last thing you consider. Sizing adds another layer of complexity and one can make perfectly nice prints without it on many papers.

Personally, I haven't used Platine for a number of years since getting some of the infamous bad batch. I have been meaning to try it again, but just haven't got around to it. I find that salted-paper printing is one of the most finicky processes when it comes to paper. I get the most consistent results with Hahn. Pt Rag. So consider trying another of the unbuffered papers.

All of that said, I don't think that your problem is not the paper or sizing. Rather you problem lies in the curve for your digital negative. (I print exclusively from digital negatives these days.) I consider any found curve to be only a starting point.

Curves for digital negatives are sort of like ICC profiles for regular inkjet printing in that they are very specific to the 'context', especially the ink set used and the material being printed on. Thus, one can take a found curve that gets you close, as you have here, but to get optimal results you will need to tweak the found curve to match your materials.

I have no experience with the specific ink jet film you are using, but I would consider using Pictorico to start as it is known to be good for digital negatives. Once you get good results with materials that are know to work you can consider moving to less expensive substitutes. The substitute I use currently is a generic 'waterproof ' film designed for silkscreen. Lots of folks use a similar film from Fixxons with good results.

The issue with generic inkjet films is often one of ink density. If you can't lay down enough ink on your negative you can't get good highlights. In this regard too, experiment with both MK and PK. In some(most?) inksets there is a distinct distinct difference in their density in the UV. With my P800, I get slightly better results with MK than with PK. I run a Piezography Pro system as well as the P800 with OEM inks, but I have never bothered to try using the Piezography system for negatives as I am perfectly satisfied with the results from the OEM system.

You can get good results from either film negatives or digital negatives. I enjoy the much greater control/flexibility I have using digital negatives compared to film.

So I say try Pictorico and tweak your generic curve to start.

Regards,

--- Frank

 

[Rick A]

I use in camera negatives and develop for several types of alternate printing methods. My negatives are contrasty to start with, and I further adjust contrast (for POP methods) using potassium dichromate during processing. I don't always size my paper, but it does produce the best looking prints in certain applications.

 

[fgorga]

I use in camera negatives and develop for several types of alternate printing methods. My negatives are contrasty to start with, and I further adjust contrast (for POP methods) using potassium dichromate during processing. I don't always size my paper, but it does produce the best looking prints in certain applications.

Oh, no doubt about it... there are many different paths to success in alternative processes, almost as many as paths to failure!!

I am partial to arrowroot sizing myself if I size, but I have never particularly liked albumen prints for my own practice but may folks do.

For beginners though, sizing is an additional layer of complexity that is not strictly necessary for salt printing especially on paper made for alt process printing. That's my main point here.

Regards,

--- Frank

 

[fgorga]

Neil,

One other thought, about fixing...

I suspect that your fixing procedure (one bath, for 8 min) is not ideal.

Everything I have read (c.f. Chris Anderson's book or James Reilly's book) say that a two bath fixing protocol is much more effective than a single tray. Thus, two trays for 4 minutes each is thought to be best practice for salted-paper.

Regards,

--- Frank

 

[koraks]

5g sodium chloride 5g sodium citrate no sizing agent

5g per what? Square meter?
I generally salt with a 1.6% NaCl solution, about 1ml for a 4x5" area. My silver nitrate is 11%.
I suspect your salt/silver ratio is part of the problem. It only takes a little bit of salt.

Then expose until you hit dmax. First make some test strips where you increase exposure by 1 minute steps or so...or even better: 30 second, 1 minute, 2 minute, 4 minutes etc., so one-stop increments. This will tell you what exposure you need to hit a good black.
Then test that exposure with a negative. If the whites end up somewhere halfway the tonal scale instead of pure white, you know you need to have more contrast in your negative. With a decent-quality transparency material and Epson pigment inks you should be able to have sufficient density in your negatives especially if you combine black + yellow. You can use QuadTone Rip to tailor the inks used as well as perform calibration with it (apply a calibration curve / linearization).

I don't see any mention of citric acid. You do use sodium citrate but I'm not sure if that will work in preventing dichroic fog. I always add a little citric acid to the silver nitrate sensitizer to keep the whites clean. Otherwise they'll fog on nearly all papers I've tried.

I'd recommend masking your borders so that you know your processing is OK and you don't have fog. By the looks of your scan I'd say you probably have some fog and not just insufficient density in your negative.

 

[Neil Genower]

Appreciate all your remarks. Some good points which I shall take on board. Re 5g & 5g salt solution, I add 250ml of distilled water. No, I don't add citric acid to my sensitiser, I can try adding some to see. I wondered about fog but wasn't too sure how to identify it.
The one bath fix was because I didn't have enough Thiosulphate for two baths so tried to cheat with prolonging the one bath. I now have more Thio so will do it properly now.I did test both sized paper and non sized. I sized with Carrageenan as per Christina Anderson's recommendation in her salted paper process book, although despite boiling the stuff, it still glooped up, but seems to smooth out in application. She also recommends a 15% silver N solution, I will try adding (separately) some citric acid to see if that improves and double bath the Thiosulphate fix. As first attempt at alt printing, I've probably bitten off more that I can chew with Salt paper process. Very grateful for all your help folks.

 

[koraks]

Re 5g & 5g salt solution, I add 250ml of distilled water.

Ok, that's in the ballpark for sure at 2%.

Give it a try with the citric acid and masked borders. Tinfoil works for masking if you don't have any rubylith, although the latter is more convenient.

As first attempt at alt printing, I've probably bitten off more that I can chew with Salt paper process.

Heck no You got an image alright; it's just a matter of ironing out the kinks.

 

[nmp]

Always print a step wedge (in addition to koraks' suggestion of covering a small part with Al foil or rubylith like material so you can see if there is a "dark" reaction going on) on the side of the image so you can judge where all your tones are at. It makes it easier to distinguish if it is lack of Dmax or highlight staining (result of inadequate UV opacity in the negative) or both that is making the picture look flat.

:Niranjan.

 

[Neil Genower]

I have done a step wedge and figured around 12/13 minutes is optimum for max black, I need to do this again, with both some added citric Acid and using two 4 minute fix baths. Yes, Koraks I did get an image and I'm quite pleased with it I've read and re read so many pieces of information I'm slightly overwhelmed. From the print I have, I'm really appreciating the subtleness of salt. One question I did have was: would using a localised bleach (potassium Ferricyanide) work in lifting the highlights?
Thanks again everyone.

 

[koraks]

would using a localised bleach (potassium Ferricyanide) work in lifting the highlights?

Yes, but you'll need to use a very, very weak dilution. The effect will be several orders of magnitude stronger than on regular B&W paper.

 

[Neil Genower]

Yes, but you'll need to use a very, very weak dilution. The effect will be several orders of magnitude stronger than on regular B&W paper.

I guessed as much...I'll try it on a 'trial print' to see before committing to a print I care about. Good to know, thanks K.

 

[nmp]

Yes, but you'll need to use a very, very weak dilution. The effect will be several orders of magnitude stronger than on regular B&W paper.

I guessed as much...I'll try it on a 'trial print' to see before committing to a print I care about. Good to know, thanks K.

Wouldn't gold toning come in the way of the bleach?

:Niranjan.

 

[Neil Genower]

Would gold toning negate the bleach? I'll let you know when I get around to trying it.

 

[nmp]

Would gold toning negate the bleach? I'll let you know when I get around to trying it.

Bleach will only work on silver, not gold.

 

[Neil Genower]

......ah, Thanks nmp. I wondered why it didn't appear to be a 'thing' alt processing uses.

 

[koraks]

Yeah sorry, I missed you gold toned it. The bleach will likely still do a little bit as you most likely haven't toned to completion.