First Roll Developed.....Minor Problems Help Please

I developed my first roll of MF Ilford 5P+ 120.

Tank Used = http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/111290-REG/General_Brand__Stainless_Steel_Tank_Plastic.html
Chemicals = All Ilford
Developer = ID-11 ratio 1:1
Developed @ 21C/70F for 12 minutes
I mixed up 300ml of all solutions for one roll of 35MM. I thought that the tank would hold 1 35mm roll or 1 - 120 roll or 1 - 220 roll.

At the top of the negative there is a darker strip across the entire roll like it did not get developed properlly.

I tested this theroy by placing my reel in the tank and pouring in 300ml of water like I did with the chemicals. The water only came to about 3/4 up the film, which is consistant with the line that runs across the negatives. Am I correct that this unevenness is from not totally being covered during developing? Or should I look else where?

I than tried doubling the amount of water and could not fit all the water in the container. Now if I am correct about this, where should the chemicals level be after pouring into the tank? Should it be just over the reel? Or should it be at the top of the tank?

I realize there are scratches and dust that was scanned with the negatives. I had a little trouble using the reel, which is a General Brand and a pain in the butt to load.

I believe I have covered everything. If there is any information I forgot to give you, please let me know and I will supply it.

Thank You in Advance,
Dan

Yes, it looks like you did not have enough developer to cover the film during the cycle. After you pour out the dev and then pour in the fix, it took away the latent image that was on the film, thus the dark band.

Put the reel in the tank anf fill with water just a little over the top of the reel. Then pour the water out into a graduate and make a note of how much was there. This will get you close to the amount of dev, stop, fix, etc., that you use next time. The instructions (?) that came with the tank may also tell you. There will be a different amount for 35mm and 120/220.

Yes, you are correct. There was not enough chemistry.

It is best to fill the tank. If 300ml is too little and 600ml is too much, then the answer is in the middle. Most of those steel tanks that size take about 16 oz, which is somewhere between 400 and 500 ml (I have that written down somewhere)

Take heart, you did most of it right! Just fill up the tank with whatever it needs.

And come back here with the next questions.

Thank you, I just wanted to make sure by checking with the experts here before running off all willy nilly. As far as instructions, good old B & H and General Brand did not include a set of destructions. Well, I now realize the tanks holds 2 - 35mm and 1 roll of 120/220 film, so I guess this would be a quick indicator I would need more solution, Doh! Now I feel like a retard for not reading closer. Thank you for your reply.

Dan

Is there a better tank and reel system then these generic SS tanks? Does anyone have some info or suggestions on this? The reels really load eratically expecially in a changing tent or dark.

Have a look at the Paterson System 4, especially their Universal tank, the reels ratchet loading system is IMO a joy to use.

Queticon said:

Is there a better tank and reel system then these generic SS tanks? Does anyone have some info or suggestions on this? The reels really load eratically expecially in a changing tent or dark.

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*******
I have used Nikor, Kinderman, Omega, and generic SS tanks since the early 1960s. Ditto for SS reels, including the much praised Hewes SS reels. They all load just fine-----ONCE YOU GET THE HANG OF IT!!.

My darkroom mentor in college sent me to the dorm with a piece of bulk film and a reel and told me to close my eyes and practice loading it by touch alone and not to come back until I could do it "blindfolded." To this day, I can be standing in a totally light tight dark room, and I STILL load with my eyes closed! Ditto for a changing bag, althugh I do not stand inside the changing bag (vbg).

I use plastic: Paterson tanks and reels - the reels are a cinch to load (as long as they are completely dry). For stainless, a lot of people recommend Hewes stainless reels as probably the best but as I said, I use plastic myself.

Good luck next time - as already said, it looks like you did everything else spot-on so that's some comfort!

Cheers, Bob.

Anscojohn said:

*******
I have used Nikor, Kinderman, Omega, and generic SS tanks since the early 1960s. Ditto for SS reels, including the much praised Hewes SS reels. They all load just fine-----ONCE YOU GET THE HANG OF IT!!.

My darkroom mentor in college sent me to the dorm with a piece of bulk film and a reel and told me to close my eyes and practice loading it by touch alone and not to come back until I could do it "blindfolded." To this day, I can be standing in a totally light tight dark room, and I STILL load with my eyes closed! Ditto for a changing bag, althugh I do not stand inside the changing bag (vbg).

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I got a 120 and a 220 reel. The 220 reel was kicking my arse. I than sat with the 120 reel and practiced with an unexposed roll of film. I feel I got the hang of it, so I guess I will stay with the equipment I have untill I feel very comfortable and get consistant results. I learned a long time ago to change one thing at a time when diagnoising or learning something, so you can figure out what works and doesnt and like Bob said it seems I have verything else spot on except the volumn in the tank which I will work on tonight.

I thank you all for your help in this matter.

Dan

Queticon said:

Is there a better tank and reel system then these generic SS tanks? Does anyone have some info or suggestions on this? The reels really load eratically expecially in a changing tent or dark.

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Yes is the quick answer. Buy the best you can, although I've gotten by on the generics for years, but some folks just can't do the generics.

"Destructions". I'll have to remember that!

Nikor (sp?) used to make oversized 220 tanks and reels. You can find them now and then on ebay. Loading a 220 roll in one of those is no harder than a roll of 120.

Having said that... I just noticed what looks like pressure marks (the white crescents). These are usually caused by buckling the film as you load it so you may want to practise that a bit more (assuming they are not scanning artefacts, hairs etc)

Good luck, Bob.

If you want to go plastic you can't go wrong with Paterson.
I have and still use my System 4 from 30 years or more ago. I have a couple of Super System 4 tanks also, but I still prefer my old regular System 4 tanks.
If you want to go steel reels, then get the best such as Hewes, Nikor or Kindermann.

Bob F. said:

Having said that... I just noticed what looks like pressure marks (the white crescents). These are usually caused by buckling the film as you load it so you may want to practise that a bit more (assuming they are not scanning artefacts, hairs etc)

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You are correct, those are not hairs or artifacts, but creases in the negative, where I tried to get it on the roll correctly. That roll and I fought and cussed each othere a few times.


I have written everyone elses suggestions for tanks down and as I buy more tanks and reels, I will start replacing them with better ones. Thank you all for your suggestions.

I plan on shoot another roll tonight and developing it. I will post my results to see if I got the hang of it.

Thank you
Dan

Yeah, about those reels. I had a set of generics from Adorama and they were the worst. Couldn't get them loaded for love or money. In short, they sucked. Traded them in for a set of Hewes reels and never looked back. Yes they were pricey. Yes, they were worth every cent.

I'm not surprised that 300ml didn't completely cover the film in your tank. Paterson and similar plastic tanks are spec'd at 550ml for a single 120 roll. Stainless tanks are usually more efficient, but not by that much.

Dan,
One trick I learned with 120 reels is that the roll film does not HAVE to be attached to the clip. If you just hold it there on the top of clip whilst you turn the first half turn or so, friction will hold the 120 film in place and the "cross threading" just does not seem to happen.
That being said, I NEVER had any luck loading 220 film on 220 reels, including the big, oversized Kinderman. I tried all kinds of expedients--even shooting a blank frame mid-roll so I could cut the film and load it on two 120 reels. When I was finally out of the 220 film I had bought, I just stopped using 220. End of problem, sorta.
As I said before, once you get the hang of it, though; SS: it's a cinch. Err, wrong choice of word, I guess. And someone earlier on mentioned the caveat with plastic that it must be perfectly dry. Try loading one of those !@#$ when in a hurry and it's not 110% dry.

fschifano said:

I'm not surprised that 300ml didn't completely cover the film in your tank. Paterson and similar plastic tanks are spec'd at 550ml for a single 120 roll. Stainless tanks are usually more efficient, but not by that much.

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I thought it was strange also, so I poured water in with the reel in just to double check and sure enough it did not cover it. I just now experiemented and found that 400ml will just barely cover the reel. I think this should work better.

I am going to get a different tank for 220. The only thing I am shooting in 220 is slide film, so that may be a bit for that.

Dan

One thing I think I need to add. Whether I have one roll, two rolls, or as many as the tank will hold, I always fill the tank completely with developer. I spend a little bit more on chemistry that way, but for me it actually works out pretty good, it means I use it up before it goes bad. A 1 liter kit of developer lasts me about a year.
With stop bath (water) and fixer I'm not that picky since I agitate constantly with those, so not having enough chemistry would be less problematic, but I fill it pretty good during those stages of development too.
The exact same thing that happened to you happened to me too when I developed my first rolls of film.
Good luck, and practice a lot with an empty roll of film, so you get your film onto the reels without ruining anything.

- Thomas

Does this effect the aggitation at all having it filled completly or am I misunderstanding what the agitation is meant to do. I figured you would need a little room in the tank, not sure why I would think this. Why do you fill completly? Is there a reason or is this a practice you just adapeted and stuck with. I only ask so I do this right as I learn it and not learn a bad habit now.

Dan

Logically, there must be a difference in development between just covering the reel and filling the tank, as there is a lot more air space for one than the other, but really the main reason for agitation is to replace the developer which has just acted on the film with fresh developer. Many fill the tank completely just to avoid the possibility of not covering the film. Also, many probably develop two rolls together as a regular procedure, so they fill the tank as a matter of course.

By the way, despite the crescent marks and the undeveloped top bit, that is an excellent photo of the dog, so stick with it and let us know how you go.

OK, not quite all the way full...

Well, you want to leave a little bit of room, maybe an inch or so at the top, so that you actually can agitate. Good point, one that I failed to point out.
I get amazing consistency this way. More developer doesn't mean you'll develop your negatives more. It just means there's enough developer.
Keep at it. Like previous poster says, the photograph you posted is really nice, it's a GREAT start. Much better than mine was.
- Thomas

Queticon said:

Does this effect the aggitation at all having it filled completly or am I misunderstanding what the agitation is meant to do. I figured you would need a little room in the tank, not sure why I would think this. Why do you fill completly? Is there a reason or is this a practice you just adapeted and stuck with. I only ask so I do this right as I learn it and not learn a bad habit now.

Dan

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Hi Dan,

I think we've all made mistakes like this - i certainly did. Don't worry, it happens, you've done well with your first attempt, at least you got images!

I'd also recommend the Paterson plastic tanks and spirals, rarely had any problems with loading 120 film. I can't comment on the metal reels as i've never used them.

Paterson tanks need 500ml for a 120 film - I use 600ml as the dev dilution ratio is easier.

When loading, ensure the reel is bone dry, otherwise the film will kink, leaving crescent marks all over your negs. Take your time, and if the film sticks just roll it up, put it into the tank, close the lid with the centre column in place so it's light-tight and dry the spiral. Use a warm hairdryer on the spiral if you're unsure. Then you can try again.

You can practise loading the film using the backing paper, which also helps remove any moisture from the grooves.

One other thing you'll need to load 120 film - patience!

A few comments:

First, your observation that 300ml of solution didn't cover a single roll of 35mm film is puzzling. In my SS tanks, I use 250ml for a single roll of 35mm and that's enough. I thought that, aside from some older tanks, the diameters of SS tanks were pretty standardized. Perhaps you didn't measure correctly...?

Second, in contrast to a couple of other posts here, I don't generally fill the tank when I develop less film than fills the tank. I fill it with enough solution to cover the reel. I then use another reel to keep the first one from bouncing around a lot, although there have been times when I've forgotten this and noticed no problems as a result. The reason for my doing this is basically economic -- using more solution than the film requires adds to the cost of processing, at least for single-use solutions, like most developers. Some developers are fairly expensive. The last I checked, Kodak C-41 developer cost about $1 per 250ml at working strength, and even the mix-it-yourself varieties are about $0.50. Why throw away $0.50 to $1.00 whenever I develop a single roll of C-41 film? If I thought it would make any difference, I'd spend the money, but as far as I've seen from my own results, the difference is non-existent. (An exception to this rule is when using very dilute developers, which may require the extra volume to get enough developer in the tank to fully develop the film.) Most B&W developers are less expensive than the C-41 developer, but the costs can still add up.

Third, concerning tanks and reels, you've stumbled into the "plastic-vs-SS" minefield. Some people have strong preferences, but these are personal preferences. You'll only resolve the issue for yourself by trying both types yourself. In the meantime, use what you've got. If you don't like it, try something else. For me, my preference is SS tanks with Hewes reels for 35mm and an odd Russian plastic tank for MF. (I've not yet tried Hewes MF reels, though.) My experiences with my AP tank with either AP or Paterson reels have been negative, overall.

Kevin Caulfield said:

Logically, there must be a difference in development between just covering the reel and filling the tank, as there is a lot more air space for one than the other, but really the main reason for agitation is to replace the developer which has just acted on the film with fresh developer. Many fill the tank completely just to avoid the possibility of not covering the film. Also, many probably develop two rolls together as a regular procedure, so they fill the tank as a matter of course.

By the way, despite the crescent marks and the undeveloped top bit, that is an excellent photo of the dog, so stick with it and let us know how you go.

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I figured there had to be a difference, I guess I will have to grab two test rolls and see what happens and make notes.

Thank you. I just switched to MF from 35mm and I picked up my entire kit off Ebay. After seeing those negatives come out right there in front of me was truely amazing. I am now hooked. That was just one from that roll. I figured one was enough to show. I will take more of the pups soon and post them.

-Dan

I like to start from the taped end of the film, especially for 120. The extra stiffness is sometimes helpful for getting into the clip, or holding it in the center as Anscojohn recommends.