First Medium Format Folder

Sam21 · Friday at 3:01 PM

Hi all, I've been shooting medium format for a long while now and recently have wanted to pick up a folder, but have been absolutely overwhelmed by the options and information that is out there. I'm looking primarily at 6x6 with a coupled rangefinder. Zeiss Super Ikontas were recommended to me, as were Agfa Isolette IIIs (I know their RF is uncoupled), but wanted to see if folks here had any other recommendations. I did find a shop that has a Super Ikonta B with a 3 month warranty and it's clean aside from minor haze behind the front element.

Any recommendations for the best place to look? Given the age of these folders, I know that most of them require service, so wasn't sure if there are any sellers that are usually trustworthy sources for working or recently serviced folders. I appreciate any thoughts to cut through the noise!

Sam

bernard_L · Friday at 3:23 PM

Sam21 said:
I'm looking primarily at 6x6 with a coupled rangefinder.

You are going to pay a premium for this requirement. Possibly most of the pictures you take will be at distances >=2m, and f-stops 8 and higher, conditions where you can safely rely on estimated distance (and will get better with practice). And when you need to take a close-up shot, take from your pocket the accessory RF, Watameter or similar.

minor haze behind the front element

Make sure the 3 month warranty includes a right to return "no questions asked". Or you will find out that your shadow areas are veiled and the seller will tell you that you were aware of the haze and therefore it is not covered by the warranty. Given what I can imagine what a Super Ikonta from a dealer might cost, I would reject a copy with an obvious deficiency.

When I need critical focusing and framing I take my Rolleicord Vb. With a Rolleinar 1 Bay 1 in the pocket, I'm all set for accurate close-ups down to 50cm. When I want to go lighter, I take a Perkeo (Skopar) and an accessory rangefinder.

My 2¢

Jojje · Friday at 3:24 PM

I started with Ikontas, there's nothing wrong with their picture quality, but I never liked their viewfinders - I wear spectacles. Exact framing was more like guessing. So now they only gather dust. Nowadays my walk around folder is a Mamiya-6 with much better viewfinder.

Sam21 · Friday at 3:43 PM

bernard_L said:
You are going to pay a premium for this requirement. Possibly most of the pictures you take will be at distances >=2m, and f-stops 8 and higher, conditions where you can safely rely on estimated distance (and will get better with practice). And when you need to take a close-up shot, take from your pocket the accessory RF, Watameter or similar.

Make sure the 3 month warranty includes a right to return "no questions asked". Or you will find out that your shadow areas are veiled and the seller will tell you that you were aware of the haze and therefore it is not covered by the warranty. Given what I can imagine what a Super Ikonta from a dealer might cost, I would reject a copy with an obvious deficiency.

When I need critical focusing and framing I take my Rolleicord Vb. With a Rolleinar 1 Bay 1 in the pocket, I'm all set for accurate close-ups down to 50cm. When I want to go lighter, I take a Perkeo (Skopar) and an accessory rangefinder.

My 2¢

I appreciate that advice. I'm definitely not entirely against an uncoupled rangefinder depending on availability/pricing etc.

A Rolleicord is typically what I'm shooting with most of the time as well, also with a rolleinar as needed! Sometimes I like to just shake things up, but absolutely love that camera.

Sam21 · Friday at 3:44 PM

Jojje said:
I started with Ikontas, there's nothing wrong with their picture quality, but I never liked their viewfinders - I wear spectacles. Exact framing was more like guessing. So now they only gather dust. Nowadays my walk around folder is a Mamiya-6 with much better viewfinder.

I've been keeping my eye out for Mamiya 6's--unfortunately almost all the copies I've found are overseas and I'd be dealing with tariff rates on top of it. There don't appear to be many kicking around for sale in the US. Really interesting focusing mechanism on those!

BrianShaw · Friday at 3:48 PM

Me too. The problem is more than just tariffs; most seem to have fungus.

My Rolleicord Vb has been in retirement for quite a while. It was a really nice camera to use. I miss it…

ntenny · Friday at 3:48 PM

I used to have pretty good luck with an external accessory RF (unfortunately I can’t find it since the last time I moved house) and scale-focus folders. Transferring the reading is an extra step, but it wasn’t as much of a hassle as I feared originally.

Super Ikontas are expensive, and you might dip a toe in with a scale-focus folder like a Nettar or a plain Ikonta before committing that much money. Zeiss made great stuff though.

-NT

Sam21 · Friday at 3:54 PM

BrianShaw said:
Me too. The problem is more than just tariffs; most seem to have fungus.

My Rolleicord Vb has been in retirement for quite a while. It was a really nice camera to use. I miss it…

I've noticed the fungus--a lot of the sellers love to pass it off as "light marks" in their descriptions.

Definitely, the VB has always felt like a sweet spot for price to image quality combined with portability.

xya · Friday at 4:02 PM

Have a look at my website https://www.120folder.com/ you may find lots of information just about 6x6 rangefinders...

Paul Howell · Friday at 4:02 PM

I've been keeping my eye out for Mamiya 6's--unfortunately almost all the copies I've found are overseas and I'd be dealing with tariff rates on top of it. There don't appear to be many kicking around for sale in the US. Really interesting focusing mechanism on those!

I have and like my Mamiya 6 off the top of head not sure which version. Lens is sharp, coupled rangefinder, my shutter is within tolerance, or was last time I used it. Takes a SVI slip on hood and filters. Not too much money, and you are right the tariff is an additional cost and hassle. Lately Ive been using a Kodak Trourist, one with a 4 element lens and 1/400 of second shutter. It is 6X9 and is scale focus, as I use for landscapes I shoot at infinity not an issue for me.

pbromaghin · Friday at 4:52 PM

There's nothing wrong with guess/scale focusing. I actually find them easier to use than a Super Ikonta, especially if it has a depth of field scale. The Super Ikonta was just a bit too fiddly. And the Ikonta/Nettar Novar lenses are really good.

Sam21 · Friday at 5:06 PM

pbromaghin said:
There's nothing wrong with guess/scale focusing. I actually find them easier to use than a Super Ikonta, especially if it has a depth of field scale. The Super Ikonta was just a bit too fiddly. And the Ikonta/Nettar Novar lenses are really good.

That’s good to know. I probably started off leaning towards a rangefinder vs scale focus just due to familiarity, but I zone focus enough when shooting so imagine I could figure that out.

Sam21 · Friday at 5:10 PM

xya said:
Have a look at my website https://www.120folder.com/ you may find lots of information just about 6x6 rangefinders...

This is fantastic. Thanks for sharing!

Prest_400 · Friday at 5:21 PM

xya said:
Have a look at my website https://www.120folder.com/ you may find lots of information just about 6x6 rangefinders...

What I like about these forums is running into people who have done things or are related to resources that I had been checking for long. Many times had I visited your site for useful info!

A couple years ago I went the OPs way to get a folder as a secondary medium format. Wanted a Tessar type lensed camera with an RF, much better if coupled. I ended up finding a local Super Ikonta IV. Dead meter but sleeker than the older B models, f3.5 Tessar and 12 frames on a roll (IIRC the B models do 11). Mine is not CLAd but surprisingly works very well minus some non-critical interlock nudging needed.
Zeiss Ikon has the Mess Ikontas (uncoupled RFs) and then other Variations without RF but having Tessars. Then Nettars are cheap, plentiful and fun. I was given one, as an intro to folders. Otherwise $15 cheap here.

Another model you might look for is the Super Fujica 6, have read good things about them but for a similar reason to the OP's about Japanese cameras, the Mamiya Six are not so usual to find in Europe either.

During summer I managed to get a Perkeo with Color Skopar, fantastically compact that I have yet to test. There is quite some encouragement about scale focus in the forum, yet I always wanted some focus assurance for medium format! Another note to self is that phones have Lidar sensors, so a measurement app could work.

blee1996 · Friday at 6:35 PM

If you come from MF SLR or TLR, you need to be prepared that lots of folders might not give you the image quality you are seeking. There are more things that can go wrong with folders: wobbly struts, front standard out of alignment, lens out of alignment, shaky camera due to shutter linkage, leaky bellows, etc. So it is indeed a good idea to get a camera with known quality from a reputable dealer or seller.

I personally like the Mamiya 6 Automat a lot, after it is fully serviced. I got it from Japan yeas ago, and have to replace the half-silver rangefinder mirror, collimate the lens, replace the leatherette and etc.

If you let go of the coupled rangefinder, you choice widens substantially. Personally, I like using the Perkeo II. Olympus Six, and Seagull 203. You can always add a small shoe mount rangefinder.

Melvin J Bramley · Friday at 8:22 PM

Sam21 said:
I've been keeping my eye out for Mamiya 6's--unfortunately almost all the copies I've found are overseas and I'd be dealing with tariff rates on top of it. There don't appear to be many kicking around for sale in the US. Really interesting focusing mechanism on those!

Its a crap shoot buying an old folder.
My mint looking Mamiya 6 folder cost me a small fortune in repairs.
The end result is a workable camera with image quality a bit less than a Rolleiflex TLR with a Tessar lens.
The Mamiya has one of the better viewfinders that is still not what you can call good.
Another option and one I am tempted to try is the Super Fujica 6 .
As far as I know all other folders have worse viewfinders than the Fuji and Mamiya!
If absolute image quality is required then you should look elsewhere.

Sam21 · Friday at 8:26 PM

blee1996 said:
If you come from MF SLR or TLR, you need to be prepared that lots of folders might not give you the image quality you are seeking. There are more things that can go wrong with folders: wobbly struts, front standard out of alignment, lens out of alignment, shaky camera due to shutter linkage, leaky bellows, etc. So it is indeed a good idea to get a camera with known quality from a reputable dealer or seller.

I personally like the Mamiya 6 Automat a lot, after it is fully serviced. I got it from Japan yeas ago, and have to replace the half-silver rangefinder mirror, collimate the lens, replace the leatherette and etc.

If you let go of the coupled rangefinder, you choice widens substantially. Personally, I like using the Perkeo II. Olympus Six, and Seagull 203. You can always add a small shoe mount rangefinder.

I am definitely coming at this thinking that the folder experience/image quality will be different than I'm used to--approaching this more just to shake things up from time to time. Hard to resist their charm... if they work.

I've actually been reading up on the Isolette line--particularly, the Isolette III seems like it might be a nice middle ground between no range finder and a coupled range finder. I came across a seller Certo6 who seems to give them an overhaul before selling them. Has anyone had experience buying from him before?

MattKing · Friday at 8:43 PM

A 6x6 Baby Bessa - scale focusing.
Quite small, and ergonomically perfect if you are left handed

Ron789 · Friday at 9:08 PM

I bought a Super Ikonta with coupled rangefinder a while back for €100, the film transport sometimes skips a frame but other than that it's a really nice camera, pocket size, great lens. Here is a photo I made in Patagonia early this year

BrianShaw · Friday at 9:10 PM

Sam21 said:
I am definitely coming at this thinking that the folder experience/image quality will be different than I'm used to--approaching this more just to shake things up from time to time. Hard to resist their charm... if they work.

I've actually been reading up on the Isolette line--particularly, the Isolette III seems like it might be a nice middle ground between no range finder and a coupled range finder. I came across a seller Certo6 who seems to give them an overhaul before selling them. Has anyone had experience buying from him before?

They work in more ways than one. My favorite folders tend to be Kodak/Nagel, in both 35mm and MF. I'm willing to respool 120 to 620 and use range focussing. They are very effective cameras despite some of the rather primitive designs. PLUS... women think they are cute. My wife would say that every time I picked one up. And that's not all...

Paul Howell · Friday at 9:59 PM

I use my folders as a second body when I'm shooting LF. Both the Mamiya 6 and Kodak Tourist fit well into a pack, take up little room, when hiking or in the back of an SUV. I have used the Mamiya for walk about, it worked, but in general I usually take a TLR.

DWThomas · Saturday at 12:16 AM

Sam21 said:
[ . . . ]I came across a seller Certo6 who seems to give them an overhaul before selling them. Has anyone had experience buying from him before?

I purchased a Perkeo II in 2007 and an Ercona II in 2009, both from Juergen and found them pretty well serviced and ready to use. But that's a long time ago -- neither he nor the cameras are getting any younger, so not sure my experience means much.

pbromaghin · Saturday at 12:47 AM

pbromaghin said:
There's nothing wrong with guess/scale focusing. I actually find them easier to use than a Super Ikonta, especially if it has a depth of field scale. The Super Ikonta was just a bit too fiddly. And the Ikonta/Nettar Novar lenses are really good.

This should probably read "they have" instead of "it has".

albireo · Monday at 2:54 PM

Seems like it's getting pretty grim for MF folder aficionados on the bay..

A lot of rusty 1950s junk going for hundreds, thousands of euro.

A tatty Super Isolette for 1100 euro? A rickety Mamiya 6s for 400 euros? Super Ikontas Tessar with mouldy lenses for 600 euro?

What are these people smoking. I wonder if sellers are jacking up prices to try recoup what they're losing from the American customers due to the tariffs.

Please Pentax do a compact 6x4.5 camera next.

albireo · Monday at 2:57 PM

blee1996 said:
If you come from MF SLR or TLR, you need to be prepared that lots of folders might not give you the image quality you are seeking. There are more things that can go wrong with folders: wobbly struts, front standard out of alignment, lens out of alignment, shaky camera due to shutter linkage, leaky bellows, etc. So it is indeed a good idea to get a camera with known quality from a reputable dealer or seller.

100% this.

my Super Ikonta III (Tessar) has a tad worse IQ than my worst TLR with a Tessar-design lens (an early Minolta Autocord with a number of issues) and noticeably worse IQ than my best TLR with a Tessar-design lens (a Rolleicord Vb with an astoundingly good Xenar).

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