First Medium Format Camera - Advice

Q.G. · May 10, 2010

lxdude said:
You're distorting what he said to make your point. He in no way said anything against his Yashica, nor did he say there was anything wrong with starting out with it or using the Yashica to pay his bills at one time in his life.

He also said his Hasselblad collects dust, while he would never part with his Rollei, or words to that effect. The point he was making, as I read it, is that people should figure out what type of camera works for them.

Which I think is good solid advice.

People have a lot of fun with Ricoh, Yashica, Minolta, Mamiya and Seagull TLR's. Ok, they're not Rolleiflexes, but they also don't cost like one. Not everyone feels they have to have the ultimate whatever.

It was yet another example of someone who started using cameras from one group, ended up having cameras from another group. (Traded one camera of one type for another camera of the same type. Why?)

Noone said that people don't have fun with all those cameras you mention. They also tend to accumulate cameras, until they find one they, for some reason or another, stick with.
And for some reason or another, that choice tends to fall on a small group of cameras.
We may or may not like that, but it is how it is.

Despite the excitement it caused, it is good solid advice too, to figure out what camera you will end up, and skip spending money on the rest.

It used to be that many people thought that the three i mentioned were priced well beyond what anyone should spend on a camera. And rightly so.
And that indeed was why many cameras existed: they offered an affordable alternative. Most, if not all, would not even have existed had the other group been as cheap as they were.
But times have changed dramatically. And despite some people still being stuck in the "way too expensive" rut, they really are very affordable today.

lxdude · May 10, 2010

Q.G. said:
It was yet another example of someone who started using cameras from one group, ended up having cameras from another group. (Traded one camera of one type for another camera of the same type. Why?)

From his post, I would say because he could afford it later on.

And despite some people still being stuck in the "way too expensive" rut, they really are very affordable today.

For some people.

Hasselblad lenses are dirt cheap compared to what they used to cost. So are Pentax, Mamiya, Bronica, etc. Proportionally, Hasselblad lenses are still much more expensive than those other maker's lenses. In actual money, they are still much more expensive than those other makers' lenses, to a lot of people.

"Affordable" is a relative term. "Affordable" to some is a couple hundred, to some, several thousand. If Hasselblad lenses were the only thing out there, for me it would still be like decades past. I would just pass. I am not going to be spending that amount of money on lenses at this time.

I'm not saying they're not worth it, or they're not a great value relative to their former cost. I would just rather have the money in my bank account than in my camera bag, and spend some of it on film.

photobum · May 10, 2010

lxdude, Thank you for being able to read. I believe you have read my posts as I meant them to be. I remember very well the trying times before I bought the Yashica. I was making $1.25 an hour, and that was union pay. I struggled, suffered and saved for a year to come up with the $80. to buy that camera.

With the larger negative the quality of my prints jumped beyond what I expected. I thank God and my understanding wife that in the intervening years I was able to buy pretty much whatever camera I wanted. Any growth as a photographer has been because I attended a photo school in the late '60's and then in the last twenty years a workshop each summer to keep on top of things. None of that growth was because I owned a top name camera.

While I will admit that it's nice to own Zeiss glass, etc. all that does is say you own a Zeiss lens, Hasselblad etc. Your prints define whether you are a photographer and how good at that.

How dare anyone define what is economic or affordable to anyone else. Yes, the price of M/F is at an all time low. Still a quick look in KEH shows a Yashica at $115 a Rolleicord at $105. The jump to Hasselblad for a 500C is $254 then a lens at $339 and a back, $105. That's $798. for a complete camera and bargain rated at that. A Bronica or Mamiya will cost less than half that.

Do you save in the long run by starting off with the high end camera? Maybe. But what is it worth in education to be shooting M/F for a couple of years if you started off with an affordable camera? To me, Priceless.

Edward Weston used a $5. second hand lens and created, art.
O. Winston Link, the famous train photographer used Wollensak and Optar lenses and a Graphic View camera and created, art.

It's the prints, it's all about the prints. Anything else is just blowing smoke.

Q.G. · May 10, 2010

lxdude said:
"Affordable" is a relative term. "Affordable" to some is a couple hundred, to some, several thousand.

I keep reading about RB kits going for just that: a couple of hundreds. And i have no problem believing that they do.
So why not stop focussing on Hasselblad to make a (tentative) point, and say what you have to say against getting a dirt cheap Mamiya.

I'll still say that it is far better to get one of those, a 'grown-up' camera, than one of the 'also-rans' that do not cost less, but will not be what you will end up with eventually.

jeckyll · May 10, 2010

When you can pick up a 645 system for under $200, what is there to lose?

1) Your resale value is unlikely be any lower, i.e. you get to sell if it doesn't suit
2) One of the less expensive setups still give you the ability to shoot _high quality_ images.
3) Spend the extra money on film, developing, courses and improve the actual skill.

My main hobbies are photography, motorcyles and scubadiving. All fairly 'gear intensive' and all areas where the skill of the person engaged in the activity is much more important that the 'tools' they are using. These types of arguments frequently come up because someone has a keen interest in the gear more so than the skill.

In diving we always say 'don't solve a skills problem with equipment'.

I'm sure any of the main medium format systems can produce stunning images of very high quality if used correctly. If we are talking about a hobby and not a profession, then most of this discussion is rather misguided IMO

Just my $0.02

Dave Sullivan · May 10, 2010

I bought my Yashica 124g TLR off keh for about 250 and love it, its produces pretty sharp images for a cheaper medium format camera. its also got a built in light meter which is really helpful.

noumin · May 10, 2010

@RobPhoto

As you´re looking for an intro to MF, I asume you have some experiences with 35mm systems.
For a start, just think what, out of these experiences, features are important to you and start
to study the various MF-systems whith that in mind. You may be able to narrow the choice down,
and from the remaining selection there may be a system which, for some unknown reasons, draws your
attention or sympathy more than the others, then - go for it, no matter what it is.

The choice you finally made, may eventually turn out as the wrong choice, this happens, I think we all did
choose wrong at one stage or another, on the positive side you gain experience and your next choice will
get you closer to a system that works well for you. It took me four turns, so you know a bit what you´re up to.

And yes - don´t bother about names, you may like the Pentax much more than the Hassi.

jamesgignac · May 10, 2010

All of the cameras mentioned seem like good options - it's hard to tell though not knowing what sort of working you plan to do with it (granted I didn't read through every post in this long, long, thread) but I've used a Bronica SQAi, ETRSi, a Mamiya C330, 645AF and RZ67, and a Hasselblad 503cx as well as a number of folders (Zeiss Super Ikonta being the best of them) and I would recommend them all though my favourite of the bunch for my needs (and budget) would definitely be the Bronica SQ system - cheap, beautiful lenses and built like a tank. If you're not a 'square' (as I am) then the RB67 would be nice to own and I hope to pick one up someday - I wasn't thrilled by the RZ67 I used though it has some additional options for you to invest in down the road.

All that being said I just recently sold off all of my MF SLR gear and am moving to a rangefinder system as I'm doing a lot more traveling these days and each of the cameras above are not backpack worthy if you plan to have a good assortment of lenses with them (and enough supplies to last you a couple of weeks outdoors.)

Best of luck and welcome to the wonderful world of MF!!

Q.G. · May 11, 2010

From another recent thread:

For 500 bucks you can buy a complete three lens rb67 ProS system with a couple of extension tubes, a grip or two, and a couple of viewfinders.

So is...

Dave Sullivan said:
I bought my Yashica 124g TLR off keh for about 250 [...]

.... value for money?

alexmacphee · May 11, 2010

Q.G. said:
Show of hands, all of you who have 'gone through' multiple systems before ending up with one you really like.

Isn't it funny how you only ever find something you've been looking for in the very last place you look?

Q.G. · May 11, 2010

alexmacphee said:
Isn't it funny how you only ever find something you've been looking for in the very last place you look?

Indeed.

The Master Looker distinguishes himself from the Apprentice Seeker by the number of places each has to go through before finding the Last Place.

NJS · May 11, 2010

^I've just used 'ignore user' option for the first time in my life.

5stringdeath · May 11, 2010

NJS said:
^I've just used 'ignore user' option for the first time in my life.

Ditto

David_A · May 12, 2010

NJS said:
^I've just used 'ignore user' option for the first time in my life.

Same here..

jeckyll · May 12, 2010

It's a handy feature

David_A · May 12, 2010

jeckyll said:
It's a handy feature

It takes all the stress out of life

keithwms · May 12, 2010

David_A said:
It takes all the stress out of life

Not all, unfortunately. Sometimes somebody (ahem) repeatedly quotes a person on your list and you are confronted with a reminder of how life used to be...

alexmacphee · May 12, 2010

Q.G. said:
The Master Looker distinguishes himself from the Apprentice Seeker by the number of places each has to go through before finding the Last Place.

Aye, maybe... But the man who thinks he only need look in a few places is like the man who thinks you can know a book by just skimming the index pages...

Of course, some people are lucky in love, and others just marry the first prospect they meet.

Q.G. · May 12, 2010

alexmacphee said:
Aye, maybe... But the man who thinks he only need look in a few places is like the man who thinks you can know a book by just skimming the index pages...

Of course, some people are lucky in love, and others just marry the first prospect they meet.

Quite right.
But noone said you should marry the first prospect you meet, nor read a book by skimming the index pages, or something like that.

Just that if you would like to have a camera of a certain type, the days that a better one would be out of reach because it would be prohibitively expensive are far behind us now.
The market is such that the division into levels based on the purchasing power of buyers makes no sense anymore. (That is to say, such a division still exists, but the division now runs along the line seperating film MF from digital MF.)
If you can get - as was suggested elsewhere on APUG - a three lens Mamiya RB kit, with accessories, for just a bit more than a former entry level, single camera, why bother with that entry level camera?

Or returning to one of your analogies, if you are in love head over heel with a beautiful girl, know that you could be happy with her for the rest of your life, it makes no sense not asking her, just because you think she is out of your league, that she could not be able to love you. Ask her. She might.

NJS · May 13, 2010

well, honestly, there is no thing such as perfect marriage.
the more versatile types of shooting you engage yourself into the more promiscuous you become.

jvo · May 13, 2010

wow- interesting thread - and more responses than any others in a while?

my 2 cents - used MF hassy, pentax, mamiya tlr, and for the past 5 years mamiya 645 - love them! is there better equipment - maybe.

i'm able to produce prints that i like, with equipment that i enjoy, is affordable, comfortable and effective in doing it. that's really the criteria. i had to try them all to get to the mamiya 645. it was a fun path.

alexmacphee · May 13, 2010

Q.G. said:
If you can get - as was suggested elsewhere on APUG - a three lens Mamiya RB kit, with accessories, for just a bit more than a former entry level, single camera, why bother with that entry level camera?

I'm not sure what you call an entry level system or a grown up system. If you think Hasselblad is as cheap as dirt, then I figure that lots of things may be as cheap as dirt, but dirt isn't one of them. Where I live, a fairly basic Hasselblad is around three to four times the cost of a same-format Bronica, and accessorising the thing is anywhere from two to five times the cost. My local dealer's Rolleis are on average four to five times the price of the higher-end Yashicas. I don't have that kind of disposable income, and the Pareto principle is going to have to be really stretched before I think that five times the investment gives me five times the photographic return.

All the same, I don't think the point you're making is a stupid one. I've been flicking back and forth through this and similar threads because it's touching rather neatly on questions that have been forming in my head about venturing further into the medium format pool, and I'm not wanting to repeat some of my mistakes in the 35mm field (sorry about the mixed metaphors). Someone else in this thread gave a solid piece of advice, which was to choose your glass first, and then mount it. That's easily followed in 35mm, where you really only have one format to consider (we give a slight nod, though, to the half-framers). But in MF, there's at least three formats, and they all have adherents and advocates. Trying to juggle all the combinations of 645, 66, 67, leaf shutter, FP shutter, flash synch speeds, optics, rotating/nonrotating backs, costs &c to get some optimised set of compromised properties is a darned tricky task.

alexmacphee · May 13, 2010

NJS said:
well, honestly, there is no thing such as perfect marriage.

Oh yes there jolly well is. My wife has been telling me for the past thirty-six years that I've got one, and there's no way I'm arguing with her when she's in that mood.

cfclark · May 14, 2010

(re: 'perfect' marriage)

alexmacphee said:
Oh yes there jolly well is. My wife has been telling me for the past thirty-six years that I've got one, and there's no way I'm arguing with her when she's in that mood.

Oh, and to stay on-topic: Just keep in mind that just about anything you'll end up using will involve some kind of compromise. I wound up going with (and had given to me, so that helped in my choice) a Pentax 6x7; it does have its limitations, but there are plenty of good lenses for it and I've been very happy with it thus far. And it's really helped me build a good set of forearms.

Pumal · May 14, 2010

Sometimes you get lucky. When I got My Rb Pro SD, I got it with 5 'C' lenses and an extension tube for U.S.$480.00 (besides a Polaroid back, a Metering Prism and a case)

First Medium Format Camera - Advice

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