First Medium Format Camera - Advice

I've used a Yashica 124G TLR for many years, proved very reliable and good results with B&W and color.
Perhaps more suitable for landscape and general subjects, rather than close-up and more specialist applications...but I use 35mm for that anyway.

NJS said:

not intending to start any flaming but, IMHO, Hassies are a bit overrated stuff, and there are a lot of specialized repairsmen out there earning their bread for decades on these cameras... because they are faulty, too, and do have their quirks just like any other camera.
the most important thing to me with any MF system is glass - quality, price , availability and perfomance. I haven't seen anything that tops mamiya, with all these terms in mind.

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If your type of work allows use of a rangefinder camera instead of an SLR the optics of the Mamiya 6/7/7II simply outclass everything else out there, and by a lot. The only exception to that is the 75mm Heliar lens on the Fuji/Bessa III 667, which is on the same level as the 80mm Mamiya lens for the 7II.

The EBC lenses on the Fuji GW690III and GSW690III are also excellent, but not quite up to the grade of the Mamiya and Heliar.

My recommendation would be to get a Mamiya 7II because if you get anything else you will probably regret it, and you will still want the Mamiya. But then you may not have the money to buy it!!

Sandy King

Like railwayman I have a Yashica124, it's great fun to use. If you can find one at a decent price and can live with just one lens then they are an option, however my Rolleiflex is more robust.

Mamiya 645's are another option, plenty available in the UK and a variety of models, but a rangefinder Mamiya 7 is a good all round option as Sandy King suggests

Ian

I would first recommend the Bronica ETRSi which I have two of them. If you were looking on ebay I have found that Shutterblade has a good selection of MF equipment and good service. I have bought several Bronica items from them and they were shipped fast and as described. Just got a 50mm f2.8 for my Bronica system and hope to try it out this weekend. One thing I like about Shutterblade is that the pictures of the item are of the actual item you receive.

Just dive in, the water is warm!

I didn't worry about choosing my first medium format camera.

After the bug bites you then you develop the disease. Collecting them. I'd begin to worry after, well you pick a number, five, ten, twenty or more! Find a place to display them. Let's see, what film is loaded in this critter? It happened a while ago and I lost the post-it note! Maybe I need to go into my darkroom & remove the film that's in this little feller and discover what it is.

Have fun with medium format photography.

railwayman3 said:

I've used a Yashica 124G TLR for many years, [...] but I use 35mm for that anyway.

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For anything?
If not, what in MF do you use nowadays, and why?

Q.G. said:

Rob,

You must not look at the number on the price tag only.

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Good advice.

Two other things are more important: the value of the thingies for you as a photographer,

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Good advice.

and the amounts of money you will (no doubt about it) spend feeling your way through the also-rans to end up getting one of the three systems i mentioned.

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Well,....

I would agree with that advice if it were less absolute. Maybe they will end up with one of the systems you mentioned, and maybe not.

Price of entry is important to many people. Somebody with college bills or little kids, or for whatever reason not a lot of extra money, will have to wait a lot longer to be able to afford a Hasselblad or Rollei setup.
Many people have been very happy with the so-called also-rans. For someone just getting their feet wet, a less expensive setup can give them an idea of what direction they might want to take, or if MF is even for them. If Hasselblad equipment were close to as inexpensive as a Bronica SQ-Ai, for example, your advice might be valid. Hasselblad bodies can be gotten fairly cheaply but the lenses are much more expensive. A person can get the SQ, or for that matter a Yashica or Minolta TLR, and find out if 6x6 is even to their liking. If they like it, and want to go to something which will cost more, they can sell it off and lose little if any money doing so.

I wanted to see if medium format was something which would interest me. In this economy, I was not going to tie up a bunch of cash to find out. So a year or so ago I got an ETR-Si with prism finder, 120 back, and 75mm f/2.8 EII lens for $138.50, shipping included. It's been a lot of fun. I have gradually acquired some more lenses and stuff, so I guess ignorance is bliss. Maybe I'll keep it, maybe I'll sell it all and get something else. Prices aren't going to sink much lower, if at all, in the near future, so how much can I lose if I sell it?

If we were talking view cameras, would you tell someone they should get a Linhof or Ebony, and don't even bother with a Calumet or a Tachihara? When someone is just learning a new format, it's better to get going with it, than to worry about whether their equipment is 'grown-up' enough or that they will want something else later.

I intend to get my feet wet in LF in the not-too-distant future, and figure on getting a Calumet for a hundred bucks or so, and one lens. If it's a Caltar or something like that, fine; my aim will be to wring out that camera and one lens, learning all I can from them. Only after doing that will I know my next step. There's so much to learn, why should I etch my choices in stone at the outset?

When I started in 1974, people said, "Buy Nikon, buy once." The only problem with that was at age 18, I only made $2 an hour, and Nikon's lenses were all more expensive than anything else from Japan. Besides, I just didn't care for the Nikkormat, and the F2 was out of the question, cost-wise. I eventually ended up buying Nikon over a decade later, but I still have my first camera and its lenses, and they still work. No matter what you bought back then, the cameras were well built, even lower tier brands. And despite Nikon's stellar reputation for optics, there were a lot of excellent lenses from the other makers. I never regretted passing on Nikon in the beginning; it was the right thing for me to do.

It may look like these thingies are still expensive. But they are not, both for what you get and in light of the total expenditure. They really are cheap as dirt.

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I guess you buy some damned expensive dirt!
Have you looked at lens prices? Compared to Mamiya, Pentax, Bronica, etc.?
Nothing against Hasselblad or Rollei, or Zeiss glass: they have enviable reputations. But not everyone can lay out the cash for the "best", when something else will work for them.
A lot of people have made a lot of money and been very happy with 645's or with 6x6 equipment which didn't come from Europe. 15 years ago I talked to a wedding photographer who had dumped Hasselblad gear for Bronica SQ-Ai because he just liked it better. You are probably aware that Salgado used Pentax 645 equipment for years.

So skip the entry-level thingies (which includes Mamiya 6x4.5s, Pentax, and Bronicas) and pick a grown up system to begin with.

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That is unmitigated horseshit.
You do an MF novice a disservice by making such an elitist, unfounded statement. You sound like those who say if it's not Leica, forget it. Or the Nikon/Canon types who just have to have the top of the line, and look down on those who spend less for a smaller, lighter model and don't have the fanciest glass, or who use another brand. Or for that matter, those who used to call 35mm an amateur format.

Hasselblads have a great reputation, but what if 6x6 isn't someone's cup of tea? Mamiya 6x7? Not for me, thanks. They're awesome and all that, but they're too bulky and heavy.

Why is the Mamiya RB/RZ okay but not the Mamiya 6x4.5 stuff? Do you consider 6x4.5 format to be not grown-up or just don't like the equipment?

I don't even have Pentax MF gear, and I'm still insulted by your unfounded characterizations of their products as "entry-level" and not "grown up".
The 6x7 format Pentax has an excellent reputation. It wasn't bought by thousands of professionals since 1969 because it was cheap-it wasn't. The 645 series has been very popular, especially with those who wanted something with features and handling similar to 35mm SLR's. Pentax MF glass excels.

Bronica established a reputation and wide respect as a workhorse; unglamorous but dependable.


All Medium Format equipment was so expensive new that to broadly characterize any of it as entry level is ludicrous. Within their lines, Bronica and Mamiya had some simplified machines which were less expensive; that's the closest I can see to anything "entry level". MF equipment was used by professionals, and it was built to take it.

Besides, if someone is at "entry level", what would be wrong with an entry level machine anyway? How many people started out with Pentax K1000's or Yashica FR II's or something like that, and worked up to the top Nikons or bought Leicas as their skills improved and their needs became clearer?

Here's something else to consider....

I have a Mamiya M645Pro kit. I had it for about 6 months so far. I like the camera but I've ran into problems I didn't expect. Because of its form factor and weight, after continuous shooting, my hand cramps badly. I didn't recognize this problem until I started shooting seriously with it and I certainly didn't see this problem coming while the previous owner graciously let me play with it for few weeks. With a motor winder (which is removable) center of weight is away from the handle and with leverage effect, my right hand gets quite tired.

I only throw this in for OP to consider more than technical spec before settling to a particular model.

What's wrong with entry level is that it existed (past tense) to make it possible for aspiring pros to get into MF, and we don't need that anymore.


"Elitist"? I don't think so. Sensible!
Show of hands, all of you who have 'gone through' multiple systems before ending up with one you really like.

Hands up too all those who are still looking for a MF system to replace/complement the one you already have.


All in all, how much have you spend so far, and how does that compare to what an end-of-the-quest system would cost?

tkamiya-

Maybe a wrist brace would support your hand enough to allow it to relax a little. The problem might go away if the hand gets a chance to strengthen without being strained. Also, try changing how you handle it. Maybe just supporting it more with your other hand would help.

I recognize that problem. You also get it when using any L-grip.
Cameras are best held in the hand, with the hand underneath. Having it hang out on from you hand, on an arm, puts a constant strain on your wrist. Your wrist acts as a fulcrum for the lever thus formed, and at the same time has to produce a counter force to keep the camera level.
It's just a bad idea, bad design, bad ergonomics to have a grip next to the camera, instead of underneath.

Q.G. said:

What's wrong with entry level is that it existed (past tense) to make it possible for aspiring pros to get into MF, and we don't need that anymore.


"Elitist"? I don't think so. Sensible!
Show of hands, all of you who have 'gone through' multiple systems before ending up with one you really like.

Hands up too all those who are still looking for a MF system to replace/complement the one you already have.


All in all, how much have you spend so far, and how does that compare to what an end-of-the-quest system would cost?

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Your quest maybe. Perhaps my quest ended with my Bronica .. ever consider anyone but yourself?

By your logic we're all searching for the same thing as you. Pretty sure we're diverse enough so that's not the case.

I have nothing against us all giving the OP options .... but yea, your attitude doesn't help anyone ...

Q.G. said:

So skip the entry-level thingies (which includes Mamiya 6x4.5s, Pentax, and Bronicas) and pick a grown up system to begin with.

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I use a Bronica ETRSi, Bronica SQAi and a Pentax 6x7. Does that mean my work is entry-level and not grown up?

Hmmmmm

Yes I do feel as though i've just been insulted.

David

tkamiya said:

Here's something else to consider....

I have a Mamiya M645Pro kit. I had it for about 6 months so far. I like the camera but I've ran into problems I didn't expect. Because of its form factor and weight, after continuous shooting, my hand cramps badly. I didn't recognize this problem until I started shooting seriously with it and I certainly didn't see this problem coming while the previous owner graciously let me play with it for few weeks. With a motor winder (which is removable) center of weight is away from the handle and with leverage effect, my right hand gets quite tired.

I only throw this in for OP to consider more than technical spec before settling to a particular model.

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I use a monopod whenever I can. A monopod also makes a great walking stick... or deterrent of assailants To keep the 'pod light as air, I don't use a tripod head. I just screw directly into the camera. I use the same setup with an rb and an rz sometimes.

The thing about a monopod, with the pro, is that it doesn't help for shooting verticals. So you can either get that dumbass ugly bracket that mamiya sells, or you can make yourself an L bracket, or you can modify the camera and make another tripod socket, which I am actually considering.... basically just an L bracket that is attached very firmly.

David_A said:

I use a Bronica ETRSi, Bronica SQAi and a Pentax 6x7. Does that mean my work is entry-level and not grown up?

Hmmmmm

Yes I do feel as though i've just been insulted.

David

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Hmmm... indeed.

You really think that what makes one tool better than another tool is also what makes you a good or a better photographer?

5stringdeath said:

Your quest maybe. Perhaps my quest ended with my Bronica .. ever consider anyone but yourself?

By your logic we're all searching for the same thing as you. Pretty sure we're diverse enough so that's not the case.

I have nothing against us all giving the OP options .... but yea, your attitude doesn't help anyone ...

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I actually do consider anyone but myself, yes.
But i do also assume we all look for the same basic qualities in a tool.
Don't we?

But even if we don't, one tool can still be better than another.

Q.G. said:

I actually do consider anyone but myself, yes.
But i do also assume we all look for the same basic qualities in a tool.
Don't we?

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I'm not going to continue an argument that will spiral on forever. I am happy, however, that you feel your Hassy is as basic as my Bronica. So yes, we've both arrived at the same conclusion.

I have a few medium format systems, and I use them all.

I did not start with a quest for "THE" system. There are certain cameras that do certain things better than others, and with prices being what they are, it is not unreasonable to use multiple medium format systems.

I use both my Mamiya 645 system and my Mamiya RZ system. I use them for different things, in different situations, and for different desired prints.

I use both of these, and I use my Mamiya C TLR system, and I use my Mamiya Press system. Again, all for different things, in different situations, and different desired prints.

The SLRs are certainly the most versatile and easy to use, because they are SLRs. However, the Mamiya Press (a rangefinder/view camera) is the camera I go to for best raw image quality. The RZ is next. The others come in when the compromises of the Press or RZ would infringe upon what I want or how I want to shoot.

A lot of it also depends on my mood. Sometimes I just feel like using one camera over another.

To me, there is enough difference in quality, and in the logistics of use, to make 645 SLR system worth while to me, without jumping straight from 35mm to 6x6 or larger. I do not always want the quality of 6x7, nor do I always want to go through the motions to shoot a 6x7 camera for certain subjects. However, when this is the case, I also do not always want to use 35mm.

I use TLRs for when I want square format. I also find the Mamiya TLRs to have uniquely beautiful optics, to be excellent in quality, and to be quite versatile. They are my favorite medium format camera for still life and landscape pictures, when 6x6 is enough meat for what I want to print (in other words, when my prints are not going to be all that big).

The point is that you are looking for a start. You just want to put medium format film through a decent camera. You are not looking for "THE" system at this point. IMO, spend $200 to $500 bucks to try your hand at it. You may not like it. You may like it. You may want more parts for the system, or you may be satisfied with your basic normal lens kit for doing whatever you want, in which case you got out cheap! You may later find that a different camera would be a good replacement to your first, or you may find that another camera would be a good addition, or you may be entirely satisfied with the first camera you try.

Going straight for a top-notch professional system like a Hasselblad or RB/RZ is a good idea if you know for sure you are going to stick with medium format, if you have the money to both purchase it and to accessorize and maintain it in the future, and if you know for sure that you want to use a single medium format system. This is not everybody, however. I would venture to guess that it is not most people.

At this point, I think it is important to step back and think about the prints that you want to make before you take any of our advice. Think about the prints physically (how you want the actual print to be), think about the subject matter, think about the logistics of how they will be shot, and think about what tools you need from a camera system to achieve these things. Then come back and ask us what camera might meet a list of certain criteria that are more specific that what you have asked for in this post.

Guys.... except for a very small number of MF cameras that were specially designed to be an entry level ones, most of all MFs in second hand markets (that most of us have...) were used by professionals in professional applications. I *feel* this "entry level" vs "pro level" argument is quite out of place. Just about all of them are quality enough on their own merit. Can we stop this argument before it goes waaaaaay off to the left?

5stringdeath said:

I'm not going to continue an argument that will spiral on forever. I am happy, however, that you feel your Hassy is as basic as my Bronica. So yes, we've both arrived at the same conclusion.

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You are the one talking about crappy lenses in another thread, are you not? (Things you say you do not need, even, touching on the spending money on stuff you will not end up being happy with them too.)
So what's up? You either think that not all tools are created equal and there is a difference in quality. And then you are as guilty as you think i am.
Or you too were talking nonsense then.

tkamiya said:

Can we stop this argument before it goes waaaaaay off to the left?

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There is this lovely ignore user feature that has eliminated most of these unending back and forth things from my view... except when somebody quotes that ignored person, dammit!!!

Q.G. said:

You are the one talking about crappy lenses in another thread, are you not? (Things you say you do not need, even, touching on the spending money on stuff you will not end up being happy with them too.)
So what's up? You either think that not all tools are created equal and there is a difference in quality. And then you are as guilty as you think i am.
Or you too were talking nonsense then.

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$5 for a 35mm camera with a crappy lens from a yard sale is a different topic ... I've never said any of my Bronica equipment was crappy. There are hobbies, addictions, and logical discussions. Please don't confuse these. That's why we have separate threads on a board.

Hassy's just aren't for everyone, no matter what you want to believe.

keithwms said:

There is this lovely ignore user feature that has eliminated most of these unending back and forth things from my view... except when somebody quotes that ignored person, dammit!!!

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5stringdeath said:

$5 for a 35mm camera with a crappy lens is a different topic ... I've never said any of my Bronica equipment was crappy. There are hobbies, addictions, and logical discussions. Please don't confuse these. That's why we have separate threads on a board.

Hassy's just aren't for everyone, no matter what you want to believe.

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A $5 35 mm camera with a crappy lens, as opposed to what?

You have never said that Bronica equipment was crappy, no.
But i have suggested that it was (and still is) entry level equipment we do not need anymore.
And it is.

You bought a crappy lens, and wil not use it, because you (i am sure) want to use a better lens. So you will (or already have) spend more money.
If you had not spend $5 (or whatever part of it) on that crappy lens, you would have a bit more money to buy a lens you would want to use.

But that's an elitist point of view, i gather. Ah well...

Q.G. said:

A $5 35 mm camera with a crappy lens, as opposed to what?

You have never said that Bronica equipment was crappy, no.
But i have suggested that it was (and still is) entry level equipment we do not need anymore.
And it is.

You bought a crappy lens, and wil not use it, because you (i am sure) want to use a better lens. So you will (or already have) spend more money.
If you had not spend $5 (or whatever part of it) on that crappy lens, you would have a bit more money to buy a lens you would want to use.

But that's an elitist point of view, i gather. Ah well...

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Sigh .. I spent the $5 for the body, the lens just happened to be attached to it at the time. My point was your quoting me from another NON MF thread is irrelevant here, and not helping the OP. Ok?

I'm done, because my responses aren't helping him either. Except my first ones .. get a nice Bronica ETR system and save that money you didn't waste on a Hassy to eat a month's worth of great food.

(Please note sarcasm I don't hate Hassy's)