First LF sheets

TareqPhoto · Feb 19, 2011

Finally yesterday afternoon[Saturday] i used my 4x5 for first time, i did shoot 4 sheets only, first i began with B&W and second i did shot with color, i sent them all to the lab, i went yesterday night [now while i am typing it is a new days after midnight] to get the color, and B&W will be processed tomorrow[Today at our time], but from the color sheets i have some issues.

Shen Hao HZX45 IIA, Rodenstock APO Sironar-N 150mm, Velvia 100F

So as you see, first shot has upper part of the frame in black, don't know what is that black "border", anyone can tell me what is the reason or cause that?

Second thing, i used the color correction option in scanning software, but i got different colors result of both shots, both were taken by same film, and there is about 30 minutes maybe between the two and the sun was up strong and the light both are the same, but if there is another reason what is it then? I can correct both shots by Photoshop for example, but i intentionally didn't do that.

In fact i am so happy to have those results as my first sheets, can't wait to see my first ever shots of B&W by LF, i feel happy that my color sheets partially passed successfully, the exposure not spot on is not my main concern, the contrast of the light that time is huge [DR], but that LF as expected was able to handle it, and that first shot issue will not make it as big fail, i will consider it as a must mistake for beginner , so waiting your comments here.

2F/2F · Feb 19, 2011

The black part looks like you did not pull your dark slide all the way out.

The color difference is because of the software. It cannot think intelligently - actually see your picture and analyze it; it is just programmed to make a bunch of pixels of various colors average out a certain way. You need to use your eyes to perfectly color balance something, or if you do use automation, a neutral gray card should be the target. Changing color balance in Photoshop is the same thing as changing it in your enlarger, so don't feel weird about that. We all have to tweak color balance in anything but bright, clear, middle-of-the-day sunlight, whether we do it in the camera or in the darkroom.

TareqPhoto · Feb 19, 2011

2F/2F said:
The black part looks like you did not pull your dark slide all the way out.

The color difference is because of the software. It cannot think intelligently - actually see your picture and analyze it; it is just programmed to make a bunch of pixels of various colors average out a certain way. You need to use your eyes to perfectly color balance something, or if you do use automation, a neutral gray card should be the target. Changing color balance in Photoshop is the same thing as changing it in your enlarger, so don't feel weird about that. We all have to tweak color balance in anything but bright, clear, middle-of-the-day sunlight, whether we do it in the camera or in the darkroom.

Thanks for your time to reply my post, i appreciate it

About that black frame i don't think so, because i take off the dark slide completely out until i click the shutter and then insert it back again.

About the color workflow, well, i agree, for me i am not so sad about it, in fact i like both different colors, and i sure can correct both, but i just curios to know if i did a mistake to have that slightly color difference or it is normal, sure i may have those colors again and again if i shoot there same subjects at same time, but i just would like to be sure if there is anything i should know about the color correction, and your idea about using gray card for white balancing is good, i have those cards when necessary.

Christopher Walrath · Feb 19, 2011

Can't help on the color, Tareq. But on the black are YOU sure? I mean, did you remove the slide completely form the film holder and either hold it in your hand (tapping nervously, perhaps) or place it somwhere until you tripped the shutter then reinsert it? Because I agree with K. That looks like a darkslide blocking light. The only other explanation I might come up with is that that portion of the film received NO development. But I find that rather unlikely.

Glad you like it and things look to be going well so far.

MattKing · Feb 19, 2011

A really large amount of rise?

jbbooks · Feb 19, 2011

Caused by not fully inserting the film holder into the back. On the film holder, next to the cutout for the frame, opposite the end you insert into the back, there is a ridge running across the film holder from edge to edge.

On the camera back, there is a groove that the raised section fits into when the film holder is fully inserted. If you stop when you feel the raised section first bumping the back, it will leave the film holder slightly outside the proper position and that last bit of film will not be exposed, even with the dark slide fully removed.

You need to push the film holder in, on past that first bit of resistance, until it "pops" into place with the film holder ridge seated in the camera groove..

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

Christopher Walrath said:
Can't help on the color, Tareq. But on the black are YOU sure? I mean, did you remove the slide completely form the film holder and either hold it in your hand (tapping nervously, perhaps) or place it somwhere until you tripped the shutter then reinsert it? Because I agree with K. That looks like a darkslide blocking light. The only other explanation I might come up with is that that portion of the film received NO development. But I find that rather unlikely.

Glad you like it and things look to be going well so far.

I am sure 10000% that i removed the slide completely in my hand until i got the shutter clicked, but i understand and found out that it was due to the extreme tilt[front].

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

MattKing said:
A really large amount of rise?

Actually, it is a tilt

jbbooks · Feb 20, 2011

Tilt was not the problem. The nice straight edge of the unexposed portion and its location are a dead giveaway to a not fully inserted film holder.

2F/2F · Feb 20, 2011

If it was a film holder not fully inserted into the Graflok channel, then that would make sense, though it must have been right at the point of almost causing a massive light leak on the other side.

It also could not be too much tilt, as that would leave a highly curved line, not a nearly straight line.

I suppose it could be something in front of the lens as well, though it appears a bit too sharp for that to me. Was there a bellows lens hood in use for the photos?

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

jbbooks said:
Caused by not fully inserting the film holder into the back. On the film holder, next to the cutout for the frame, opposite the end you insert into the back, there is a ridge running across the film holder from edge to edge.

On the camera back, there is a groove that the raised section fits into when the film holder is fully inserted. If you stop when you feel the raised section first bumping the back, it will leave the film holder slightly outside the proper position and that last bit of film will not be exposed, even with the dark slide fully removed.

You need to push the film holder in, on past that first bit of resistance, until it "pops" into place with the film holder ridge seated in the camera groove..

i know about those, i was so careful not to have those mistakes, so i think it is none of them cause it, i think the only reason i can think about and why is that shot only is as i said due to that too much tilt, i posted this on LF forum and most posts agreed that i tilted more than it should be and the part of the bellow came to the image circle in front of the lens, i didn't forgot to push the holder inside tight, i didn't forget to remove the dark slide out completely, another reason it might come to mind is when i used the dark cloth, maybe i didn't notice it and covered little part of the lens, in all cases it happened and now i know all the things that may cause it one or another and i noted them all so i will not make the same mistake again.
Also i have to check the B&W sheets, because i started with those sheets before the color, if both B&W sheets doesn't have that problem then i am so sure it was that wrong tilt.

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

jbbooks said:
Tilt was not the problem. The nice straight edge of the unexposed portion and its location are a dead giveaway to a not fully inserted film holder.

OK, i will keep that in mind and will make sure next time that the holder is inserted fully tight.

2F/2F · Feb 20, 2011

If it was too much tilt, it would have been plain as day on the ground glass. You could not have missed it.

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

2F/2F said:
If it was a film holder not fully inserted into the Graflok channel, then that would make sense, though it must have been right at the point of almost causing a massive light leak on the other side.

It also could not be too much tilt, as that would leave a highly curved line, not a nearly straight line.

I suppose it could be something in front of the lens as well, though it appears a bit to sharp for that to me. Was there a bellows lens hood in use for the photos?

It will be endless story to list all the reasons now, i didn't use any hood, also i tilted not only the front but also the back, so that may pressed on the bellow in between [sandwich] and made it to be there.

Another reasons as i stated in previous post is the dark cloth, but this is not hundred % sure as it will not be that straight on upper frame[it should have some curves or inclined a bit maybe].

Anyway, i am still happy that i've got something, and this mistake will be a nice lesson of what mistakes i may do, so for next time i will be sure i will follow all the instructions carefully and not let any tiny mistakes as stated on this thread to be shown, and good that the black border is just the sky, i can crop that anytime and still have a great shot, or even play with photoshop and turn that black to blue as the sky below it.

Rick A · Feb 20, 2011

The last time I used extreme tilts, it resulted in a curved line at the top of the photo. This appears to have been the result of not seating the film holder completely into the camera back, since you are positive you pulled the slide fully out, and reinserted it fully.

Mats_A · Feb 20, 2011

As I don't own a 4x5 I'm asking this out of curiosity, not as an advice. If this would have been the dark slide not pulled out fully, would not the dark band have been on the lower side? Picture is upside-down and dark slide goes in from the top. Am I missing something here?

r

Mats

2F/2F · Feb 20, 2011

Mats_A said:
As I don't own a 4x5 I'm asking this out of curiosity, not as an advice. If this would have been the dark slide not pulled out fully, would not the dark band have been on the lower side? Picture is upside-down and dark slide goes in from the top. Am I missing something here?

r

Mats

No, you are correct.

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

Mats_A said:
As I don't own a 4x5 I'm asking this out of curiosity, not as an advice. If this would have been the dark slide not pulled out fully, would not the dark band have been on the lower side? Picture is upside-down and dark slide goes in from the top. Am I missing something here?

r

Mats

Exactly, so that it is not the dark slide problem definitely.

Rick A · Feb 20, 2011

Is it possible to insert the film holder too far into the camera back? I have caught myself doing that with my Calumet cc-400, which would account for the black at that location on the film.

TareqPhoto · Feb 20, 2011

ralnphot said:
Is it possible to insert the film holder too far into the camera back? I have caught myself doing that with my Calumet cc-400, which would account for the black at that location on the film.

In all cases, if that was the reason or something else it happened, so for the next time i will be sure that the film holder is inserted fully and tight, and the dark slide is removed completely out, and whatever i can do to minimize or eliminate any errors.
too bad i was tired and slept to late time so i couldn't go and bring my B&W sheets, but i will tell if i did another mistakes with B&W as well, but the only thing i really believe for that upper black border shot is i did wrong with movements somehow, i remember i was in so bad awkward pose doing it and i even can tell maybe my dark cloth was in front of the lens a bit, but i will not stop on that shot, i will keep shooting more and more and will see if i will see this problem again.

Zaboo · Mar 7, 2011

ralnphot said:
The last time I used extreme tilts, it resulted in a curved line at the top of the photo. This appears to have been the result of not seating the film holder completely into the camera back, since you are positive you pulled the slide fully out, and reinserted it fully.

I second the theory of not seating the film holder all the way. I have had this problem with a Polaroid back because they are thicker. The results were identical...

k_jupiter · Mar 8, 2011

Could be a placement issue with the film holder. Could be a shift combined with tilt. Until I got my Deardorff, I never knew you could make shadows on the film plane from the bellows getting in the way via too much shift (lateral and rise and fall). I always shot speed graphics and that was never an issue. That's my bet. Too much rise and fall on one or both standards.

Never the less. Keep working on composition and enjoy your first attempt. I still have mine from 26 years ago.

tim in san jose

First LF sheets

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