First LF field camera questions

If you look at my thread just above yours, you will see that I recommended reversing the lens for macro beyond 1:1 - except that the easiest way to reverse a LF lens is to swap the cells.

I'm guessing when you say swap the cells you mean that LF lenses come in two or more parts and that the shutter fits somewhere in the middle, and that you can reconfigure the individual lens elements/groups (cells) in a different order, is that correct? Sorry to ask such a simple question, but I couldn't find an explanation on google and I just want to make sure my understanding is correct.

Aha - as always lfp.info answered my question above for me - http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/

What a great site - whoever has put lfp.info together really knows their stuff and has put it in a great format for the newbie.

PaulBradley said:

I don't so much mind the idea of the Sinars weight as its bulk - when it is disassembled for carrying I presume you have basically a bellows, the two standards and the rail all separate - is that right? Even if it were a bit heavy, if it would fit in a largish camera backpack along with all the accessories I'd not mind carrying that much bulk, and I don't really hike with a camera - I can't see ever walking more than a couple of miles with it, but OTOH I do take seriously the advice of people here who have experience and are saying it is _REALLY_ heavy and bulky, so I will be thinking on this.

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Many years ago, when I was a fit and healthy 30-something, I sometimes had to do architectural photos for clients which involved schlepping around London with a Sinar Norma outfit in a standard Sinar case (strong enough to stand on – which was an important consideration) and a damn great Gitzo tripod. I always made sure I could park my car no more than a hundred yards away from where I had to take my piccies. I could have used a trolley but there were often steps or other obstacles in the way so it hardly seemed worth it. I can assure you that you will not want to hike even a couple of miles with a Sinar P outfit on your back. Sinar F series is lighter but lacks the sophistication of the P series.

By contrast my present field kit, which consists of nothing more exotic than an old MPP with a couple of lenses and the rest of the gubbins, together with a Manfrotto tripod scaled at about 12 kilos. As a 60-something cardiac case I can manage that lot for maybe 3 miles at most. 4 or 5 miles with my wife carrying the tripod. Beyond that it's hire a sherpa or tell the air ambulance to stand-by!


Richard

Like all newbies to LF you want it all. Fact is you can't have it all in one camera. I would suggest you make a choice based on whether you mostly do macro work in the studio or in the field or whether you do mostly field work with some macro work in the studio.
If its mostly field work with a bit of of macro work, then get a field camera first and later get a mono rail for the studio. But if you do mostly studio macro work, then get a monorail first and later get a field camera.
But if you do macro work in the field, then you will need a hybrid camera such as a technikardan which is designed to versatile at the expense of some rigidity. It works fine but needs to be handled carefully.

Geared movements = extra weight and size = not suitable for backpacking.
The vast majority of LF cameras don't use geared movements which should tell you that they really are not necessary.

If you want a recommendation, here it is: get a field camera with rear movements like the Shen Hao. If you find you do not have the movements or bellows for the more "difficult" subjects, get a used monorail for those few times you need it. All your film holders etc will fit and if you get one that takes Technica lens boards they will fit without having to be remounted (or buy/make an adaptor board if the monorail uses a different lensboard size).

A used Cambo or old Sinar monorail will set you back £150 from the auction site or MXV or similar. It won't have the geared movements of a top of the range Sinar but it will do a perfectly good job.

I have an ancient Arca Swiss. One of the locking levers has snapped and it has a few self-tapping screws where bolts should be; it's scratched and dented to b*gg*ry but... The bellows are light-tight, it locks down solidly and it is flexible enough to twist the bellows into a Möbius-strip. That is all you need in a studio camera.

Good luck, Bob.

Rob,

You are correct, and the more I read the more I realise I am asking too much from one camera. I am glad I didn't buy the Sinar, since I anticipate doing mainly field work with a bit of macro, and I was overestimating the need for geared movements. I am sure I will do fine, as Bob F said, with a field camera with back movements - I am looking at the Toho FC-45X which is a monorail but designed for field use, only weighs 3lb and has full movements - it seems like a good solution for a first camera, and as you said I could pick up a heavier studio type monorail later if I feel the need for it. It is looking like it will be more expensive since I don't anticipate finding a used one, and there are obviously other compromises too, but they are ones I am aware of and fairly happy to make.

All I would repeat is that since you are interested in macro work, then if the field camera you buy has focus on the rear standard, that will make any macro work you may want do with it much easier.

The closest thing to a perfect portable field monorail must be the semi-mythical Carbon Infinity. It has absolutely everythin including a "tortoise-shell" of carbon fiber; all possible movements on both front and rear including both base and axis tilt and swing (!), can take lenses from 30 to 600mm without modifications or recessed/extended boards - but it doesn't have geared movements.

My first and still my only one is a Sinar Norma 5X7 for which I have a 240mm Symmar S and a 150 Apo Symmar both in working condition besides that I have a 90mm f/8 SA. Its an old camera not as smoth and comforting to handle as a new and modern one and it maybe needs a little CLA, But it was cheap it is sturdy, has a fairly bright GG, its easy to handle, its cheap, it does what I want it to, not to bulky or heavy and , did I mention it was cheap What Im trying to say is that LF cameras are quite simple and there is no reason to get overexcited bout them, just get a second hand Norma, a Graphic view, a Toyo or whatever and a 135-150mm lens, some holders and film and start shooting. I your hooked you can always look for THE CAMERA for you, if not you didn't waste a fortune.
Kind regards

Rob,

Thanks, I will consider that. I am looking at the Toho FC-45X (http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm) and the Shen Hao HZX45-IIA (http://www.shen-hao.com/E45.html). I am having trouble figuring out if they focus on the rear standard - what would I search for? I have tried various google searches around combinations of "rear standard focus" "focus on"+"rear standard" "focus with"+"rear standard" and others but I can't seem to answer my question - sorry to be a pest, and I appreciate this is a question I would probably be able to answer for myself if I had some LF experience, but could you tell me if these 2 camera can focus using the rear standard, and what I would be best to google for or to look at in the description to determine this with other cameras?

Thanks so much to everyone for all the help, I seem to be iteratively moving towards knowing what I want now.

If you are asking too much from camera then there is nothing wrong with owning two or more cameras as space and budget allow.

My first was a Toyo 45AII so I mount my lenses in the 110mm boards for that camera but when I wanted more movements I bought a Toyo rail camera and an adaptor for the small boards to the larger camera. I also have adaptors for my wifes Wista/linhoff boards so I can use her lenses as well as Sinar and graphic.

A field camera combined with a studio camera and adaptors will make a good kit. Some rail cameras will use the same boards as their field counterparts like the Toyo 45CX. Look for a combination of cameras and adaptors that will work for you.

PaulBradley said:

Rob,

Thanks, I will consider that. I am looking at the Toho FC-45X (http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm) and the Shen Hao HZX45-IIA (http://www.shen-hao.com/E45.html). I am having trouble figuring out if they focus on the rear standard - what would I search for? I have tried various google searches around combinations of "rear standard focus" "focus on"+"rear standard" "focus with"+"rear standard" and others but I can't seem to answer my question - sorry to be a pest, and I appreciate this is a question I would probably be able to answer for myself if I had some LF experience, but could you tell me if these 2 camera can focus using the rear standard, and what I would be best to google for or to look at in the description to determine this with other cameras?

Thanks so much to everyone for all the help, I seem to be iteratively moving towards knowing what I want now.

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Well, difficult for me to chose exactly for you but for what its worth this is what I think:
The toho is a hybrid monorail for field. That just means its light weight for a monorail and and packs up more easily and smaller than a full studio monorail would. That doesn't make it a field camera and I doubt it is very rigid for a monorail as a result. However, handled carefully it would work just fine.

The Shen-hao is a true field camera and designed as such. It looks to me as though the focussing is on the rear standard on the HZX45-IIA but you can check with Robert White to be sure.

Having looked at these cameras I would actually go for the Shen-Hao TZ45-IIB and not the HZX45-IIA. So it doesn't have quite as much movement but in truth it is very rare you need much shift or tilt and often using a large amount of shift causes its own problems of putting the lens distortion into an image unevenly, especially with architectural photography where the distortion becomes more obvious because of the straight lines in the image. i.e. the TZ45-IIB has all the shift and tilt you will ever need except under exceptional circumstances. The benefit of this camera is that it is smaller and more compact than the HZX45-IIA and for a very cheap price you can get it with a packing case which will make it much easier to pack and protect the ground glass in a rucksack. The TZ45-IIB only has 20mm less extension so thats no big deal.

The only downside to both of your choices IMO is they both have base tilt but others will tell you thats no problem. If money were no object I would look at the Ebony field cameras which are of superb quality and have centre tilt but for the price the shen-hao looks like a very good deal.

If you were prepared to forego the convenience of rear focussing for some macro work, then I would go back to your original consideration of a tecknika for use as a pure field camera, largely because it folds up inside its own case and with the lens still on (if you have correct lens) and because it is very rigid. i.e. It might be a bit heavier but is very compact and easy to throw in smal to medium size rucksack without worry of damage.

p.s. dave miller has a shen-hao so he may want to chip in with info about rear focussing and his experience with the shen-hao.

Rob,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Since I posted my previous question I was looking at the Shen Hao site and comparing the models, and was actually coming to the conclusion that the TZ45-IIa or TZ45-IIb might be more suitable for me than the HZX. I am interested to know if anyone here is familiar with these cameras and knows if they have interchangable bellows and if a bag bellows is available for the IIa, since that has very slightly longer max extension and slightly more movements (35mm of shift rather than 12mm) so if I also had a bag bellows that might be the best overall choice. Other than those differences it seems identical to the IIb, with the same other movements and same size/weight. OTOH I have some (very limited) experience in movements using my TSE lens on my Canon digital SLR and I know I don't really use shifts much (although I do use rise/fall), if at all, so as you said the b could well be the better option.

The Ebony RW45 looks fantastic, but unfortunately money is a concern. If I get into LF and find I want one I would very seriously consider saving up and getting one in a few months, but I'd like to dip my toes in the water now and the Shen Hao looks like it would give me a lot of functionality for a starter budget.

Thanks, the Shen Hao site wasn't clear if the bag bellows was available for all the models.

I presume then if I got the IIb which has the case available and is slightly smaller that I could use a bag bellows if I wanted to use a 75 or 90mm lens, or is the minimum extension a function of the bed design rather than a result of "scrunching" the bellows. ?

Thanks again - I think I'm getting really close now to choosing a camera, and fortunately it is cheap, functional and practical (for my purposes) - how's that for someone coming from digital to see all 3 of those in the same sentence...

Sorry I made an error. The IIB has a shorter minimum bellows extension than the IIA. The IIB has minimum of 80mm. The IIA has minimum of 110mm.

That means that on the IIA (with standard bellows) the shortest lens without using a recessed lens board is 120mm(according to robert white). On the IIB (with standard bellows) the shortest lens without using a recessed lensboard is ??? but assume 85mm.

Recessed lens boards are to be avoided if possible so if you want to use a 90mm lens then the IIB would be a better option otherwise you will need to use a recessed lens board on the IIA with a 90mm lens.
Recessed lens boards make seeing and getting at the lens controls fiddly.

HOWEVER, with a bag bellows then things change and you may be able to use flat lens boards with shorter lenses. But we are getting into the nitty gritty of these camera specifics which I have no experience with so you would be better advised to check this out with Robert White to be sure about the combinations.

When I bought my setup I was so paranoid about not having enough movements I bought lenses with plenty of image circle. Never use it most of the time except a little front tilt and occasional small front rise. All my lenses would cover 5x7 with room to spare. I could have saved myself a lot of money had I known what I know now. Mind you I could always move upto 5x7 without having to replace any lenses. This is something I have been thinking about. Got my eye on a Mike Walker XL wide 5x7.

Thanks Rob. I will talk to Robert White to get the specifics. I appreciate your cautionary tale about being paranoid about not having enough movements - I think I am in danger of suffering the same paranoia, so I will be coming back here when I make my lens choices to see what I really need in terms of coverage, but as you said the ability to move to 5x7 might be nice, but I hear the film choices are more limited.

I have the HZX45-IIA Shen Hao model camera, it does not have rear standard focus capability. It does look in the pictures as though it does, but the metal channel is there to allow you to slide the rear forwards to allow you to use short focal length lenses without having the front of the camera getting in the way. That rear knob, allows you to lock the rear standard in place.

I have a Schneider Angulon f/6.8 90mm lens on a Linhof recessed board, the recess is 10mm only and there is no problems with access to the mechanicals. My lens has a Linhof Synchro Compur shutter. I would humbly suggest that this is realistically the shortest lens you can attach with the standard bellows and still move the front standard up or down, or the rear up or slide it sideways, rear or front swing is not really an option, but if you push enough, it could be done a bit.

The Shen Hao (my model) has the ability to remove the bellows in about 30 seconds flat, re-fitting takes about a minute, so that isn't an issue.

The camera is capable, and in my case does, hold very heavy lenses on the front at full extension, I have a Komuron 400T which is a huge piece of glass, it works well.

I looked around a real long time before I had decided to get the Shen Hao camera. Value for money and the range of possibilities with all of the different movements, made it a no brainer in the end.

I have a geared Calumet monorail camera, old decrepit and as heavy as a truck, the Shen Hao cannot match it in a studio situation, but it's a reasonable second.

In the field, the Shen Hao is brilliant. Whack it on a tripod, open it up, reverse my 150 Fujinon lens which stays on in the folded position, and you are away focusing in about 45 seconds if you are in a hurry, I know this because I have done it.

Geared movements are good, in fact sometimes they are a requirement, but realistically, you reach forward, loosen a knob with one hand, then slide the front up or down with the other hand, lock and you're away.

For your main chosen application, I can see how a rear focus arrangement would be better, especially if maintaining a set ratio on your film. Apart from a rear focus capability, the rear of the Shen Hao is brilliant. It slides left or right, swings left or right and goes up. There are very few cameras in this price bracket that can do anywhere near that, it is an impressive bang for you buck.

Mick.

Dave Miller said:

Out of interest I’ve just weighed my Shen Hao field camera, 3 lens kit and tripod at 14kg (about 30lbs) ready to go in it’s back pack. There’s nothing to leave out, but quite a few things that I could add in - if my legs could take the strain.

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30lbs is awfully heavy. I can fit my Tachihara rig (with 3 lenses and tripod) into a backpack with total weight of 19lb

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2308

These days I use film holders instead of quickloads. I carry less film, but I'm not limited by quickload availability. I end up with only 16 sheets of film that way, but it's rare for me to want to shoot more than that on a single hike anyway.

That's a pity if the Shen-hao doesn't have rear focus. Worth checking if some models do though. Some of the Ebony cameras with triple bed extension have both front and back focussing but they are in a different price bracket.
I guess you will either have to go for a hybrid field monorail or live with no rear focus until you can get a monorail as well for macro work. There seem to be more studio monorails on the bay than anything else so prices of those are low at the moment. But you can do macro without rear focus so whilst it might be a pain in the short term, you would end with the right tools for the jobs in the long term and especially the right tool for what you do most of. i.e. field work. So I wouldn't dismiss the shen-hao if its in your price bracket and will do 75% of what you want to do.

Rob,

Indeed - as you said, I will have to make do for indoor work at the moment, but studio monorails are so cheap on ebay I can see me getting another camera at some point - I think the Shen Hao is going to be an excellent field camera which is 80+ % of what I'll be doing, and will suffice for macro work for the time being.

PaulBradley said:

I really like the modularity of the Sinar, the geared movements and the build quality, so I'd be looking for those qualities in another camera if I do decide to get something else. I am a little split between the Sinar (which I still really like the idea of and do want) and something a little more portable like a Shen Hao or a Wista so I am still doing my research on the pros and cons, but the lack of geared movements puts me off the field cameras a bit and I am also concerned about the interchangability of parts, wheras the Sinar seems like a system that will grow easily as my needs change.

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I use Arca Swiss, which is a little lighter than Sinar but equally well built and with similar levels of system modularity (and a tendency to be a bit more expensive too ) Also like you I do both studio based still-life and landscape and architecture 'out and about'.

I like geared movements, so I use Arca Monoliths in the studio, but I very rarely take one outside: they are just far too heavy. For that I use other combinations of Arca F and 'pre-F' parts to make my field cameras far far lighter, and I don't really miss the geared movements much when I'm doing landscapes.

And, for all that, I am as a project that I do a bit of every now and then rebuilding a half-plate sized field camera as well, to be the even lighter, even more compact, option.

In LF there is no one camera that is ideal for every single situation - but if I had to limit myself to one it would be a lighter weight monorail (like an Arca F)
so no geared movements.



Peter