First LF field camera questions

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Hello everyone,

I've never done any "serious" photography on film before, but having recently brought a tilt-shift lens for my digital outfit and realised the utility of view camera movements, I'm really seriously considering selling the lens (which was rather expensive) and using the money for an inexpensive starter 4x5 field camera and accessories.

I'm looking at either an old Linhof Technika or a newer Tachihara for my sort of budget (I'd want to pretty much cover the cost of 2 lenses, some darkroom kit to develop my b&w (which I'd then scan to digital for printing, so no enlarger needed yet), some film holders, the whole lot out of what I get for the lens, which should be around £600 GBP (about $1200).) If I have to put a little money in I could.

Does anyone have any opinions on the pros and cons of these 2 cameras - I believe the Tachihara is probably a little more easily portable, and the Linhof better made even if I have to get a very old one. Portability is an issue, but not an enormous one - I will still mainly be shooting digital and using the view camera more sparingly, but some degree of portability is a must.

I would like to start out with 2 lenses, a normal lens and a wide angle - what lenses should I be looking at in my budget? Also, if cost means I have to make do with one at first which should I get, the normal or the wide? It will be mainly used for still life and landscapes I'd imagine, so my guess is get the wide, but perhaps I am mistaken.

Any other advice on buying older cameras such as lensboard compatibility with different lenses, availability of film holders and other spares, shutter reliability and having it tested (cost of doing so, and where?) and so on would be much appreciated, and although google is as always helpful if anyone has a link to a particularly good introduction to the view camera type FAQ, or a first time buyers guide, that would be fantastic.

Thanks

Paul

Tom Perkins · Jul 13, 2008

Paul,
You can read up on it pretty well at largeformatphotography.info, which has tutorials, camera and lens reviews, and also an active forum on large format photography. There are many threads on what lenses to get, on this board and on the large format board, and lots of advice. I would recommend getting just one lens to start and get used to the equipment and process before getting another, but that is just my two cents. My favorite slightly wider lens is a Schneider Symmar 135, but it does not support a lot of movements. If I really needed the extra movements and could swing it, I would try to get a Rodenstock Sironar S at that focal length. Most of the used field cameras in your price range use "Technika" compatible lens boards and that is probably a wise thing to look for in a camera as the lensboards are cheaper and can be used on different cameras after your habits spin out of control. Have a good time with it and don't fret too much, as this style of photography can be difficult if you worry it to death.

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply. Google is always your friend - I have just found lfp.info now, so I have a lot of reading to do!

Thankyou for the advice about getting just one lens - I have had the same advice on another forum where I posted the same questions, and although my instinct is to get two since I am a digital shooter I am getting the impression that I have to approach LF very differently - I am not a gear head, but it still takes a little bit of getting used to the idea of having just one focal length for everything - I am sure in the end it will make me a better photographer, so I will very carefully consider this advice.

I am not a complete optical dunce, but it hadn't occured to me before your reply that movements would be limited with the shorter focal length lenses, although now it seems obvious, although I try not to sweat corner performance and that kind of nonsense in my small format digital photography so it wasn't my first thought.

Are you saying 135mm is about as short as I could go and still get full movements? Landscapes will be the main use for this camera I'd imagine, and I suppose 135mm would be a good focal length to have for a single compromise lens as my first if I wanted something slightly wider than normal, and from the price I saw online when I googled it I guess I could afford a second hand 135mm Sironar S. Would I be doing myself a disservice by going for that focal length, or should I just buy a 150 - the difference seems small enough to my untrained imagination that I imagine either would be a reasonable starter lens, and that I'd just pay a little more to have 135mm rather than 150.

Thanks again for the advice, especially not to worry it to death - I'm pushing myself hard not to try and learn too much all at once - I guess until I get out there and take some photos with LF I won't really learn much of practical use.

Paul

SWphoto · Jul 13, 2008

If you're looking to save money on lenses, look at the newer used Caltars- Rodenstock lenses branded Caltar (Claumet Photo). Same lens, a lot less money.

Ole · Jul 13, 2008

A "very old" Technika will have limited movements compared to a newer Tachihara. But that depends on what you mean by "very old"? One frustrating thing with the early ones is that they have no direct front forward tilt - the most used movement in landscape photography. But that's "old" as in "before 1960".

Some wider lenses (like a 90mm Super Angulon or similar) allow more movements than most cameras are capable of - especially the "self-casing" types like the Technika. Again, the Technika is a wonderful instrument, but not my first choise for landscapes (even if it was my first LF camera).

Bob F. · Jul 13, 2008

One other consideration is bellows extension. This is of particular importance for still-life & macro work. To get an image life-size (1:1) on LF cameras you need to extend the bellows to twice the focal length of the lens. A 150mm lens will require 300mm of bellows, likewise a 90mm lens would require 180mm: you need to check if you are likely to want this level of magnification and if the camera you are interested in has enough bellows for your intended lens. Hiding somewhere on the lf.info site is the formula to calculate the extension which I forget at the moment - at greater magnification than life-size the extension required increases rapidly.

Multiply your favourite 35mm lens focal lengths by 3 to get close to the 5x4" focal length (28mm ~ 90mm, 50mm ~ 150mm etc). It's not quite the same as the frame shapes are different (a 90mm on 5x4 looks a bit wider than 28mm in 135 to my eyes for example) but it's a close approximation.

In order of variety and extent of movements and bellows extension length, the general rule, going from least to most, is: press camera, technical, field, monorail camera. The Technika is a technical camera and the Tachihara is a field camera.

The Tachihara is a good camera but you may also consider the Shen Hao which sells at about the same price and has more movements, but is a bit heavier. Both cameras are very popular.

A wide-angle lens, because it is closer to the film than a longer lens will, all else being equal, have less coverage at the film plane. But, all things are not always equal. A lens like the aforementioned 90mm SA (a very popular lens) is designed to have a wider angle of view than most lenses and so will have more than sufficient coverage in practical use. The converse problem here is that the lens is now so close to the film that the bellows are now likely to be tightly compressed, considerably hindering movements. The best solution here is to use interchangeable bellows (the Tachihara may not allow this IIRC) and fit wide-angle bellows which will restore full movements to you. An alternative is a recessed lens-board but the shutter controls are awkward to reach and although this will restore some movements will not give enough room for all, although what you do get may be sufficient for your purposes, especially in landscapes where a little movement tends to go a long way.

Good luck, Bob.

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Bob,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Lots to think about. From what you've said I suspect a 90mm lens (or therabouts) will be a best one-lens solution for landscapes and macro work. Someone on another forum told me that field cameras do not have rear movements, which I think I will want, so I think I have narrowed it down so far to wanting a monorail with a 90mm lens and possibly a 150 as well, with two sets of bellows to allow me to shoot both at high extensions for macro, and with good movements available when using the wider lens. Oddly enough though, the Shen Hao does have rear movements - I take it this is unusual for a field camera? Are bellows generic - ie. can I buy any set of 5x4 bellows and they will fit any 5x4 camera? Otherwise, is availability of parts like bellows good for most of the budget monorails I will be looking at?

I looked on lfp.info and found this: "You need an extension of two focal lengths to get a lifesize picture. After that, every increase of one focal length gives you one whole number of magnification", so to go to 2:1 (I cannot see wanting to go bigger than this) I would need, with a 90mm lens, 270mm of extension - even 3:1 would be possible (albeit only just, and at the cost of movements) with a Shen Hao with a 90mm lens, so I'm sure that would easily satisfy my macro needs.

I am looking at the Shen Hao website now - the HZX45-IIA looks like it suits my needs, and is within budget. I will do some more research on this camera I think - does this seem like the right model for me to be looking at to you, or is there another Shen Hao that would be better?

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

A couple more questions - the HZX45-IIA has no front shift, but I can surely accomplish just the same using the rear shift can't I? Are the front and rear shifts just additive, or is there some particular reason I can't think of that I would want/need front shift?

Also, it does not seem to have a revolving back. Does this mean I cannot use it in portrait orientation, or can the film simply be loaded into the holder in a different orientation - inconvenient perhaps, but not insurmountable if that is the case, although I would need some way to do this in the field - I take it it's possible to do this reasonably practically in a dark bag ?

Thanks again for answering all my newbie questions - I don't want to post stuff that I could google, but in this field it seems some of my questions are not so easily answered that way.

Paul

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Well I just answered my own question about the revolving/rotating back, since I found that is not a limitation and simply means the back must be removed to rotate it, no problem.

I am still unsure about the need for front shift though.

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Everyone - thanks again for all your help. I have emailed an ebay seller to see if he is willing to hold a Sinar P on deposit for me, so hopefully I have an LF camera. I have decided I'm willing to sacrifice the weight and portability for the build quality and movements.

Thanks again for all your help.

Paul

Bob F. · Jul 13, 2008

The Shen has more movements than most but is not unique in having rear movements - Gandolfi Variants spring immediately to mind (but they are in another financial ballpark). You pay for those movements in added weight because of all the metalwork needed to supply them and still keep the camera rigid. Some prefer the lighter weigh to extra movements not very often needed in landscape work. It's a "pay our money and take your choice" issue. [Edit: Ah - I see while I was typing you decided on a monorail, but I'll leave the above for reference...]

The IIA looks the same as the one I own and I have yet to run out of movements on mine in landscape. I suspect you will generally run out of lens coverage before the camera runs out of movements. A monorail will have better movements, but hiking a monorail around is not always easy; some do it, but a folding field camera will always be easier in that respect.

Bellows are not interchangeable between camera manufacturers. There may be one or two exceptions, but generally that is the case.

Front and rear shifts are additive as you suggest and are essentially equivalent. Another common trick is to use "indirect" movements: essentially, angle the camera itself and then use movements to simulate a movement you don't have, or that you want more of than is available. For example, to simulate a lot of shift, angle the camera to the subject and then use front and rear swing to move the lens and film plane so they are facing the subject again.

Have fun, Bob.

RobC · Jul 13, 2008

I have come to this a little late but I don't think it has been mentioned that if you are doing still life, especially life size or greater, then a camera which has its fine focus by moving the rear standard is a better option otherwise you have to reframe after focussing and the refocus. That makes the technika less suitable althought it would work fine.

I think that because you want a camera which does macro work and field work, then you need a compromise camera. One option is a linhof technikardan which fits these criteria. It packs up small and pretty light, has rear focus, loads of movements both front and back. I own one. I would say it is best suited for architectural, macro and studio work but is light and compact enough for some field and location work too. If I were most interested in field work then I would opt for a pure field camera and live with its shortcomings in the studio or macro mode.

Richard Kelham · Jul 13, 2008

The Sinar P series are superb studio cameras though I would baulk at taking one for a hike my little MPP mkVII is quite heavy enough thank you.

Also I would not consider a 90mm Super Angulon suited to macro work. It's a great wide angle lens for shooting in the field but for macro I'd use a repro lens, or even an enlarger lens, that is corrected for use close up. The lack of a shutter shouldn't be too much of a problem as you are looking at looooong exposures anyway unless you use flash. Close up a 135mm lens would have enough coverage for reasonable use of movements quoted image circles are usually at infinity.

Above all I'd recommend reading as much as you can: there are several good books out there on how to use a view camera.

Richard

Tom Perkins · Jul 13, 2008

Paul,
I did not mean to imply that focal lengths shorter than 135 would not cover 4x5 with movements. Many lenses in the shorter lengths have ample coverage, and I recently acquired a 120 Fujinon for architectural work for that very reason, but it is big and heavy. The 90mm Super Angulon has more than enough coverage, but I agree with Richard that it would not be the best for macro; I wouldn't hesitate to use it if it were all that I had. Just figure out which focal length you use most in the smaller format and try to get its equivalent. Your Sinar will have front shift, but rear shift on a field camera would give you the same effect, just not as precise as the monorail. Good luck on your quest.

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Thanks again for the replies - this is a mine of information and a superb forum, I am so glad I found it.

The die is cast (if the seller on ebay accepts taking a deposit to hold the Sinar P for me), so I will see how I get on - if I find it too much of a drag to carry around I may get a field camera later, but honestly I'm not afraid of a bit of weight - I carry a Canon 1 series with about 3 lenses, a couple of flashes, some filters, batteries etc. as a general walkaround kit, so the monorail should be of a similar level of heavy and inconvenient. I'm not knocking portability, just saying I don't mind a bit of heavy lifting if it gets me a camera that does it all and is very well made, and I also see the LF camera as something I will use when I know where I am going and can get there without a huge amount of walking with heavy gear - in any case, if I really get into LF and get a handful of lenses and such it might be that I ideally want both a field camera _and_ a monorail in the end, so I will try the Sinar to start with as a one camera solution and see how I get on - adding a Shen Hao or an older Linhof later seems like a "cheap" buy to someone coming from digital anyway, especially since it is not a throwaway camera that will be obselete in a few years like my digital body.

PaulBradley · Jul 13, 2008

Richard - I'd appreciate it if you could name one or two of the best books to read - there seem to be a lot out there, and it's difficult for a beginner to know what the best are. I appreciate the advice about an enlarger lens, but I imagine I will be using strobes for macro so a shutter may be handy, but OTOH for studio macro stuff I could just work in a darkened room anyway so I will bear what you said in mind - honestly it seems as thought I don't even know enough yet to know what I want or need, I think I need to dip my toes in the water and once I've used LF for a few months I expect I'll have a much better idea of my requirements.

Tom - I'm going to try a wider lens like a 90mm super angulon perhaps as a first lens, as that is not necessarily the equivalent focal length I use most in the smaller formats, but it is a focal length I use most for the applications I see using the LF camera for. Are you saying that in general a normal lens around 150mm within my kind of budget would be a better bet for macro, or am I over simplifying what you've said?

RobC · Jul 13, 2008

PaulBradley said:
but honestly I'm not afraid of a bit of weight - I carry a Canon 1 series with about 3 lenses, a couple of flashes, some filters, batteries etc. as a general walkaround kit, so the monorail should be of a similar level of heavy and inconvenient.

Famous last words. You forgot the big solid tripod which you will need for this camera, a light meter or maybe your canon and a lens to use as a light meter, the film holders, the dark cloth or right angle viewer, the packing required to protect the camera in your large ruck sack which will be heavy in itself, the protection for each lens you carry, a changing bag and spare film unless you are carrying lots of film holders, the lens shade/ compendium and filters.

Good luck....

Tom Perkins · Jul 14, 2008

Paul,
It is my understanding, as Richard says above, that some lenses are engineered for close work and others for infinity. You can use most of them for either, which is why I wrote that I wouldn't hesitate to use the 90 if that is all I had, but optimal performance can be found in the lens designed for your application. That being said, I would just go with your plan, see how you like your results, and then you can decide what to do next.

Richard Kelham · Jul 14, 2008

PaulBradley said:
Richard - I'd appreciate it if you could name one or two of the best books to read - there seem to be a lot out there, and it's difficult for a beginner to know what the best are. I appreciate the advice about an enlarger lens, but I imagine I will be using strobes for macro so a shutter may be handy, but OTOH for studio macro stuff I could just work in a darkened room anyway so I will bear what you said in mind - honestly it seems as thought I don't even know enough yet to know what I want or need, I think I need to dip my toes in the water and once I've used LF for a few months I expect I'll have a much better idea of my requirements.

Hi Paul

Two of the best are "Using the View Camera" by Steve Simmons and "View Camera Technique" by Leslie Stroebel. The latter is quite old but still very relevant. For more details see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/books/general.html

When I started out, fresh from college, I could only afford 3K of strobe so often had to resort to using 2, 4 or even more flashes in a darkened studio! So, though the lenses had shutters they were locked open on T.

I would seriously advise against having a 90mm Super Angulon as your only lens for studio work. If you really do want one then at least buy a bag bellows.

Richard

Dave Miller · Jul 14, 2008

Out of interest I’ve just weighed my Shen Hao field camera, 3 lens kit and tripod at 14kg (about 30lbs) ready to go in it’s back pack. There’s nothing to leave out, but quite a few things that I could add in - if my legs could take the strain.

RobC · Jul 14, 2008

bet your shen hao is a lot lighter and smaller than a sinar F

k_jupiter · Jul 15, 2008

PaulBradley said:
Bob,

Someone on another forum told me that field cameras do not have rear movements, which I think I will want, so I think I have narrowed it down so far to wanting a monorail with a 90mm lens and possibly a 150 as well, with two sets of bellows to allow me to shoot both at high extensions for macro, and with good movements available when using the wider lens.

Someone on another forum has their head up their butt.

For one, a Deardorff has more rear movements than a dancer in the local girlie bar.

Not that I am recommending a Deardorff to you.

I would find a nice field camera with movements, and a 135W Fujinon lens for your wide angle urges, and a 210 nice quality Schneider, Rodenstock, or whatever for your studio and macro work.

If you were truly interested in macro, I would suggest... gasp... an rb67 with extension tubes.

*L*

BTW - the Sinar P is a nice camera if you get it. If you don't, don't sweat it.

tim in san jose

Soeren · Jul 15, 2008

In another thread Ole mentioned some Symar lenses that where great for close ups. IIRC one was the 135mm Symmar. On the RB67 issue maybe a 6X7 back for the 4X5" camera could rival that
BTW I wouldn't consider 135mm to be wide angle in 4X5". Its more a "slightly wide" normal.
Kind regards

Ole · Jul 15, 2008

That's right - the old "convertible" Symmars were optimised for 1:3, which means they perform decently down to 1:1. The extra neat thing with the 135mm is that not only is it short enough to give a decent range of scales with "normal" cameras, but it is also in a #0 shutter with the same threads on back and front. That means that you can swap the cells when moving beyond 1:1!

At 1:1 it's not as good as a "real" macro lens, but a dedicated macro lens won't be as good at infinity. The 135mm Symmar also allows a little bit of movements at infinity, and is convertible if you decide you need a longer focal lengthy (and don't have any very important details in the corners).

PaulBradley · Jul 15, 2008

The Ebay seller didn't accept to hold the Sinar on deposit, so assuming there isn't one available at the right price when I've sold the TSE lens I may look at other options. I really like the modularity of the Sinar, the geared movements and the build quality, so I'd be looking for those qualities in another camera if I do decide to get something else. I am a little split between the Sinar (which I still really like the idea of and do want) and something a little more portable like a Shen Hao or a Wista so I am still doing my research on the pros and cons, but the lack of geared movements puts me off the field cameras a bit and I am also concerned about the interchangability of parts, wheras the Sinar seems like a system that will grow easily as my needs change. I don't so much mind the idea of the Sinars weight as its bulk - when it is disassembled for carrying I presume you have basically a bellows, the two standards and the rail all separate - is that right? Even if it were a bit heavy, if it would fit in a largish camera backpack along with all the accessories I'd not mind carrying that much bulk, and I don't really hike with a camera - I can't see ever walking more than a couple of miles with it, but OTOH I do take seriously the advice of people here who have experience and are saying it is _REALLY_ heavy and bulky, so I will be thinking on this.

Thanks also for the lens advice - lots of reading and thinking to do. Is it possible, like with 35mm/digital, to reverse lenses for macro work? I cannot see why not, but perhaps it is impractical on LF for some reason since no-one has mentioned it to me yet in the threads I've started here and elsewhere.

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