First Large Format (Ignorance and Expense)

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Well, gang. It's happening. Been thinking about large format as y'all know and the family is deciding to buy me a large format camera for Christmas. I've got a Sinar f2 on the way. All I need now is a tripod, a loupe, a dark cloth (been looking at one from Wanderer co.) and a light meter (maybe a Asahi Pentax Spotmeter V?). I have a lens, lens board (210 mm lens and a 42mm lens board), shutter release, and film holders on the way. Anything else I need? And could I get some recommendations for the loupe and tripod?
Also, could the F2 be modified to take glass plates?
Thanks,
JP Garriga

removedacct1 · Dec 7, 2022

You do not need to modify a camera to take dry (or wet) plates. You just need the right plate holder. (Not a FILM holder - a PLATE holder. Chamonix makes an excellent one)

Ian Grant · Dec 7, 2022

You just use glass plate DDS holders they are the same size and fit as DDS film holders. I've some for sale, but you'll find them cheaper in the US.

Ian

Donald Qualls · Dec 7, 2022

Last question first: anything that takes standard film holders (which includes your Sinar) can use a film holder modified for either dry or wet glass plates. It's often easier, if you modify a film holder yourself, to make the glass plate opening a little smaller than the nominal film size (say, 3x4 in a 4x5 holder), but you can buy 4x5 film holders ready to use for 4x5 wet plates (which can also accommodate dry plates, if I've understood correctly).

I've never used a real dark cloth myself; my Speed Graphic and Graphic view both have folding hoods for the ground glass, as do my two (one Zeiss and one Ica) Ideal plate cameras. Your Sinar won't have that, though. I'm used to seeing folks rave about Black Jacket, but those aren't cheap. Another thing that works fairly well is the biggest black t-shirt you can find; put just the neck ring over your head, with the rest of the shirt loose; you can drape the shirt around the camera back, focus and compose, and when easily back away from the ground glass with the t-shirt still securely around your neck.

I don't use a loupe, because I'm very nearsighted; I just look over my glasses and get the same effect as an 8x.

xkaes · Dec 7, 2022

Merry Christmas. The Sinar is a great camera, for sure.

Although a lot of LF users use a spot meter, I'm interested in your choice. Not the meter maker, but rather the type of meter. Why a spot meter? If your goal is landscape photography that makes more sense than if your goal is studio work, for example.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
...I don't use a loupe, because I'm very nearsighted; I just look over my glasses and get the same effect as an 8x.

Thanks, I'll have to try that before deciding on a loupe! I'm also extremely nearsighted, but I found that I have to wear my contacts when focusing with my dslr, otherwise I have no idea whether the camera is in or out of focus. I guess the ground glass works more like looking at a screen with an image on it than a viewfinder??

Nitroplait · Dec 7, 2022

Drop the spot meter unless you plan to employ the Zone System (you probably don't). A simple L308 or equivalent and a brain is enough.
Any dark piece of cloth can substitute an expensive "dark-cloth".
I am mildly nearsighted and can use the strongest cheap reading glases from the drugstore for focusing - easier for me than to use a loupe.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

xkaes said:
Merry Christmas. The Sinar is a great camera, for sure.

Although a lot of LF users use a spot meter, I'm interested in your choice. Not the meter maker, but rather the type of meter. Why a spot meter? If your goal is landscape photography that makes more sense than if your goal is studio work, for example.

That's the goal. Landscape photography is sort of my "passion" as far as photography goes. It all started a few years back with a trip to N.E. Colorado to see some family and a pocket sized 5 mp digital. We don't have many good landscapes in Mississippi, least my area, because the brush is so thick, so landscape photography always intrigued me. For studio work, at the moment at least, I'm content with my DSLR.
And, Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Nitroplait said:
Drop the spot meter unless you plan to employ the Zone System (you probably don't). A simple L308 or equivalent and a brain is enough.
Any dark piece of cloth can substitute an expensive "dark-cloth".
I am mildly nearsighted and can use the strongest cheap reading glases from the drugstore for focusing - easier for me than to use a loupe.

As I was telling xkaes, I'm planning on doing landscape photography. Been a big fan of Ansel Adams' work since I started, so I do plan on learning the zone system. I'll skip the loupe for now, if I find I need anything I guess I'll get a magnifying glass and see how that works.

Nitroplait · Dec 7, 2022

Darth Musturd said:
As I was telling xkaes, I'm planning on doing landscape photography. Been a big fan of Ansel Adams' work since I started, so I do plan on learning the zone system.

Really? Are you sure?
The old master had to write 3 books in order to explain the system (based on film technology from the first half of last century).
It implies that you develop each negative individually, and spend half your life testing film and process. (overexaggerating a little).
90-95% of the time, the light that falls on you is the same that falls on the distant scene or you can emulate the scene light by turning the incident meter. The remaining 5-10% is where you use your brain. After all, Ansel Adams didn't even use a lightmeter for his most famous photograph.

Donald Qualls · Dec 7, 2022

Darth Musturd said:
I found that I have to wear my contacts when focusing with my dslr,

I have the same issue with most eye level viewfinders -- because they're made to the put the image (real or virtual) at optical infinity. The large format ground glass is closer to the waist level viewfinder in a TLR (except inverted instead of mirror imaged). BTW, there are diopter adapters for some of the "big name" brand SLR bodies, including compatibility with DSLR in some cases -- but you'll need your glasses/contacts to see what you're setting up the shot for anyway.

If you wear contacts regularly, then you'll still want a loupe (can be had for ten bucks and up).

As far as the meter, you can buy a meter that does incident, spot, and flash metering in the same unit (hence it'll cover all reasonable needs), but you'll pay for the versatility. I use a pretty old Pentax 1/21 Spotmeter with a battery conversion (it expects mercury cell for the meter power, but uses a 9V booster for low light). When I don't want/need spot, I usually use my cell phone with a light meter app, or Sunny 16 (yes, even on large format, negatives still have latitude when the film gets bigger).

abruzzi · Dec 7, 2022

one thing not on your list (that I saw) is a way to develop sheet film. I'd reccomend the Stearman SP-445. However, if you're going in the direction of plates, a Stearman SP-810 may do double duty (It can be reconfigured for 4x 4x5, 2x 5x7 or 1x 8x10, and I'm sure it could be setup to work with plates as well.)

There is also the Mod54 which uses a Patterson tank or a 20th Century which also uses a Paterson tank.

For loupes, I like the cheap Toyo loupes, and have several of them. I think they are about 3.6x, but I'm not sure (they're not marked). You probably don't want my reccomendation on tripod, since I'm kind of old school, but I use a Gitzo G340 with a Sinar head (well, actually its a very well made Chinese clone of the Sinar head.) The Sinar head isn't terrible useful for other cameras, but its a perfect match for the Sinar rail cameras.

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2022

Consider the Pentax Digital Spot Meter for Zone System metering. I have used it for several years now and I am happy with it.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
...BTW, there are diopter adapters for some of the "big name" brand SLR bodies, including compatibility with DSLR in some cases -- but you'll need your glasses/contacts to see what you're setting up the shot for anyway...

My issue is a strange one, sometimes it feels like I have a hair in my eye, or a speck, something scratching away at my eye. I have astigmatism which I assume is responsible for this. Nothing really soothes it other than completely removing my contact. Usually it's my right eye that this happens in. That's also my dominant eye. So, whenever that happens I just remove the contact and within a few minutes of not having it in my brain pretty much blocks any visual signal from it out until I close my left. I'll then forget about not having my contact in until I go shooting and then BAM! I'm basically blind in my dominant eye. So, reckon a diopter would work well, actually.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Consider the Pentax Digital Spot Meter for Zone System metering. I have used it for several years now and I am happy with it.

I'd like to go completely analog with this if at all possible, get away from as many electronics as I can and where I need electronics, get away from digital.

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2022

Darth Musturd said:
I'd like to go completely analog with this if at all possible, get away from as many electronics as I can and where I need electronics, get away from digital.

The meter is digital but it does not use digital photography. It is an accurate tool to achieve superior analog photography. You could buy the Pentax Analog Spot Meter instead.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

abruzzi said:
one thing not on your list (that I saw) is a way to develop sheet film. I'd reccomend the Stearman SP-445. However, if you're going in the direction of plates, a Stearman SP-810 may do double duty (It can be reconfigured for 4x 4x5, 2x 5x7 or 1x 8x10, and I'm sure it could be setup to work with plates as well.)

There is also the Mod54 which uses a Patterson tank or a 20th Century which also uses a Paterson tank.

For loupes, I like the cheap Toyo loupes, and have several of them. I think they are about 3.6x, but I'm not sure (they're not marked). You probably don't want my reccomendation on tripod, since I'm kind of old school, but I use a Gitzo G340 with a Sinar head (well, actually its a very well made Chinese clone of the Sinar head.) The Sinar head isn't terrible useful for other cameras, but its a perfect match for the Sinar rail cameras.

I've heard good things about Gitzo. It looks really sturdy. The sinar head looks nice, been wanting a pan and tilt. My ball head on my STX is completely falling apart, and I like the precision of a pan and tilt. Could you get me the name of the head you use?
I completely get being old school, I'm sort of the same way. The majority of my backpacks still have metal frames. The majority of modern technology loves to fail me.

I think I'm going to get someone local to develop my film for now, maybe develop each negative individually in trays? I'm probably not going to be shooting this a super crazy ton, at least not at first, I'd be lucky to be pushing a clip a week with this. My main usage for this is going to be landscaping, and we don't have a ton of good landscape shots in my little spot in Mississippi. Trying to travel to more scenic locations to satisfy my own wanderlust and get more pictures, though. Maybe it'd be worth it to start developing my own then, but I may start shooting and decide that I don't want to send in film or wait to have it returned to me.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
The meter is digital but it does not use digital photography. It is an accurate tool to achieve superior analog photography. You could buy the Pentax Analog Spot Meter instead.

I may have to check out the Analog, I reckon I'd have more luck with that than trying to buy an antique spot meter.

abruzzi · Dec 7, 2022

So the real version is just called the Sinar pan tilt head. They’re only available used, and can easily sell for $200-300 in good condition. The Chinese clone is $300 new, and can be bought on eBay:

Pan Tilt Head for Sinar Camera black | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Pan Tilt Head for Sinar Camera black at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

It doesn’t work well for other cameras because it is only a 2 way—pan and tilt. You get the third axis (leveling the horizon) by rotating the rail inside the rail clamp.

Personally I don’t recommend ball heads on view cameras. Some like them, but I hate them because the camera is large and unwieldy.

abruzzi · Dec 7, 2022

BTW, developing yourself can really help you learn quicker because it faster to iterate until you get the process down.

Donald Qualls · Dec 7, 2022

One thing about glass plates -- aside from collodion, which has its own special procedures, you can develop them in trays, and as far as I'm aware, all the glass plates currently available are either blue-sensitive or orthochromatic -- meaning you can develop them under safelight, as you would prints. Therefore all you need to develop 4x5 is two or three 6x6 plastic food containers...

DREW WILEY · Dec 7, 2022

Don't listen to the naysayers. Get a spotmeter. I've been using the Pentax digital ones for decades for everything. Yeah, Zone System types often prefer them, but so do Hollywood cinematographers.

With the Sinar rail clamp, you don't need any supplemental head at all, just a solid set of legs. But if you must have a head, avoid a ball head like the plague unless you enjoy endless wobbling. The Sinar pan tilt head would be a decent choice.

Darkcloths? Avoid anything linty; that's just common sense. I personally use black Goretex fabric, but it's hard to find.

Some kind of loupe or magnifier is a MUST. My favorite loupe is the Peak 7X, also sold under Horseman and Nikon labels.

John Patrick Garriga · Dec 7, 2022

abruzzi said:
So the real version is just called the Sinar pan tilt head. They’re only available used, and can easily sell for $200-300 in good condition. The Chinese clone is $300 new, and can be bought on eBay:

Pan Tilt Head for Sinar Camera black | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Pan Tilt Head for Sinar Camera black at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

It doesn’t work well for other cameras because it is only a 2 way—pan and tilt. You get the third axis (leveling the horizon) by rotating the rail inside the rail clamp.

Personally I don’t recommend ball heads on view cameras. Some like them, but I hate them because the camera is large and unwieldy.

Thanks! That looks pretty good, I may just get one of those. Growing disdain for my ballhead. It ended up breaking at some point, maybe a screw got stripped? Doesn't do much of anything correctly anymore...

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2022

Darth Musturd said:
Thanks! That looks pretty good, I may just get one of those. Growing disdain for my ballhead. It ended up breaking at some point, maybe a screw got stripped? Doesn't do much of anything correctly anymore...

I do not like ball heads. They are often to loose and the camera can flop around.

Chuck1 · Dec 7, 2022

the big bogen ballhead is truly horrible(the sliding lever to lock the ball) makes is shift when locking
pentax digital spotmeter is worth every penny, and a sekonic L158 (~$20) is great when it's pouring

First Large Format (Ignorance and Expense)

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency