First foray into selenium toning. Dissapointing results.

[wiseowl]

All,

just had a first try at selenium toning, but the results haven't turned out as expected so I'm wondering if I might have a few pointers.

This is what I did :-

I had 2 prints, on Iflord MGIV FB which were printed some weeks ago.
I cut these prints in half and soaked both halfs in water.
I then took one half of one print and placed it in a bath of Kodak Rapid selenium Toner mixed 1 + 20 for ten minutes.
I Then tried half of the other print in toner at 1 + 4 for 5 minutes

When wet, the print at 1 + 20 appeared to have behaved as expected, ie an increase in dmax and improvement in shadow contrast. However once dry I can see no difference between the two halfs.

The print toned at 1 + 4 showed a marked colour change, but once again once dry there is very little to see between the 2 halfs. This does change slightly if I view the print from an oblique angle there is a hint of egg plant, but from straight on it's barely noticable.

Have I made any school boy errors? (Or should that read, what school boy errors have I made?)

TIA

Martin

 

[Peter Rockstroh]

Martin,

Multigrade is not the best choice for selenium toning, as it tends to produce a split tone which is not everyone´s taste. If there is very little tonal change, it sounds as if you might have used a hardening fixer that makes toning difficult, if not impossible. Try with graded paper and F-24 or any other similar fixer.
Hope this helps.
Peter

 

[Les McLean]

The mistake you made was in using Ilford Multigrade IV for it does not respond too well to selenium. Try Ilford Warmtone, Forte, Oriental Seagull or Kentmere. I personally use selenium at either 1 to 9 or even 1 to 4 and never tone to a time, I observe changes in the colour and contrast as the print is toning. Generally lower values will be first to change, blacks will increase in density resulting in higher contrast, higher values will be the last to tone. I would suggest that you make 2 identical prints, leaving one in a water bath for reference while toning the other but don't continually look at the print being toned, to do so will make it difficult to see colour and contrast change. After you have toned a few prints you will begin to see the changes without having to use a reference print.

All,

just had a first try at selenium toning, but the results haven't turned out as expected so I'm wondering if I might have a few pointers.

This is what I did :-

I had 2 prints, on Iflord MGIV FB which were printed some weeks ago.
I cut these prints in half and soaked both halfs in water.
I then took one half of one print and placed it in a bath of Kodak Rapid selenium Toner mixed 1 + 20 for ten minutes.
I Then tried half of the other print in toner at 1 + 4 for 5 minutes

When wet, the print at 1 + 20 appeared to have behaved as expected, ie an increase in dmax and improvement in shadow contrast. However once dry I can see no difference between the two halfs.

The print toned at 1 + 4 showed a marked colour change, but once again once dry there is very little to see between the 2 halfs. This does change slightly if I view the print from an oblique angle there is a hint of egg plant, but from straight on it's barely noticable.

Have I made any school boy errors? (Or should that read, what school boy errors have I made?)

TIA

Martin

 

[eric]

The mistake you made was in using Ilford Multigrade IV for it does not respond too well to selenium. Try Ilford Warmtone, Forte, Oriental Seagull or Kentmere.

Quoting the first reply, these papers you mentioned, all are "non-VC" paper right? I remember toning years ago but I think I mostly used graded paper. For economy right now, I'm using VC papers

 

[Paul Sorensen]

I tone variable contrast Forte and Kentmere in selenium and get very good results. Forte can get away from you as it takes a tone very quickly and turns quite egplant. Kentmere also takes a nice tone but it seems to take a bit longer than Forte and is more controllable. I have always used VC papers and have always toned them in selenium, with what I consider to be good results.

 

[photomc]

Quoting the first reply, these papers you mentioned, all are "non-VC" paper right? I remember toning years ago but I think I mostly used graded paper. For economy right now, I'm using VC papers

Actually, no they are all available as VC papers...no need to limit to graded papers.

 

[eric]

Actually, no they are all available as VC papers...no need to limit to graded papers.

Good to know. Its been a while since I've toned.

 

[Claire Senft]

If you wanted to see the difference offered by toning it would have been better to leave one half untoned.

 

[photomc]

Good to know. Its been a while since I've toned.

Know what you mean, after 25 years out of the darkroom, I was all thumbs and felt like every thing I ever knew was erased...then I found this place...

 

[Daniel Lawton]

In my experience MGIV toned in KRST 1+8 for 5-6 minutes gives a very subtle but pleasing purple hue and in increase in DMAX. I tried MGIV warmtone but the results were too garish and red for my taste but I'll have to experiment with different dilutions. Generally speaking, cool-toned papers like your standard MGIV developed in a neutral-tone paper developer are more resistant to selenium toning. Even with strong dilutions of selenium its tough to get a radical tonal shift. The most dramatic results are achieved with a warmtone paper and a warm tone developer like AGFA Neutol WA.

 

[wiseowl]

All,

just a quick note to say "thanks for the advice" before I leave for work. I haven't taken a lot of care as to what fixer I've been using and I can't say whether or not it's a hardening fixer. I will get some non hardening and try again, and I dare say I'll be experimenting with different papers in the future.

Thanks again,

Martin

Clare, just to clarify, I used 2 prints, both cut in half with only one half of each toned.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

You can use Kodak Rapid Fixer (which comes with the hardening agent separated - just don't mix it in when making your fixer ). Also, Bergger takes toning very well. I have had no problems with toning VC papers - they're the only thing I use, frankly.

 

[titrisol]

Ilford "neutral" Multigrades are not the best papers for selenium, they lose that grrenish tinge but you can;t see much difference. The shadows become a tad darker and the print becomes more pleasant though.

I think that any warmtone paper would so the trick, or some neutral papers such as AGFA MCC that tone beautiful.

However, I love Ilford COLD paper in Selenium. It just acquires a bluish tonality that is awesome.

 

[roy]

Quoting the first reply, these papers you mentioned, all are "non-VC" paper right?

As far as I am aware, the chemicals making up the emulsion will determine the extent and way in which the selenium works, irrespective of whether they are graded or VC papers. I think the papers Les has mentioned are chloro bromides or similar. Some of the nicest and most delicate changes I have seen have been with Oriental Seagull toned in gold and Forte Polywarmtone lith printed and toned in selenium. In my case both VC papers.

 

[gareth harper]

In my experience MGIV toned in KRST 1+8 for 5-6 minutes gives a very subtle but pleasing purple hue and in increase in DMAX.

I'll second that. I tone MGIV RC and fibre in a KRS 1+4 warm solution. You do indeed lose that horrible green tinge and in place you get what I'd describe as a blue(ish) charcoally effect with a good increase in D-max. It is quite a cold look.

If you want something a bit warmer, that also reacts well with the selenium, as said try Ilford warmtone or similar.

 

[mikeg]

I quite like the Kentmere fibre papers, the standard Fineprint VC seems to react quite well to selenium 1+9. After about 8 - 10 minutes it starts to take on the classic purplish tinge. However, I can't seem to get the Fineprint Warmtone paper to change colour at all in selenium. Which seems very surprising as warmtone papers tend to tone better than the more normal versions. Anyone else had any luck with Kentmere Warmtone?

Cheers

Mike

 

[andre laredo]

The real problem you are having, is the paper you are using. MGIV is very
insensitive to selenium.If you want to see some serious color change,try
Forte paper,Polywarm,selenium 1:5. Yea Baby.

 

[geraldatwork]

I'm happy with the results I get using Ilford MGIV fiber and Kodak Selemium. Maybe I'm not expecting much and I'm happy, I don't know. I use it 1 +15 for about 4 minutes and find it increases DMAX and takes away the greenish cast. I find if I tone too long like 5 or 6 minutes it gets a little too purplish for my taste.I'm using Ilford Rapid Fixer at film strength for 1 to 1 1/2 minutes (one bath). I also wash/hypo clear/wash my prints pretty well, probably more than is needed before I tone if that makes any difference.

 

[Alan Johnson]

It is possible to get a good color change on Ilford MG1V RC paper by bleaching the print in dichromate/hydrochloric acid and redeveloping before toning in selenium.I found the bleach/redevelop step is best repeated 3 times before toning to give more color.There may be some lightening of the print.See The Photographers Master Printing Course by Tim Rudman for the formula.

 

[gnashings]

Wow, Gerald, that is a very strong mix for paper - what is your rationale behind going this route? Do you have a particular need you ae working to meet, or is this just what has worked well for you? I'm just curious to learn.

As far Sellenium - is it only avialable from Kodak? Is it only available in liquid concentrate? I was going to try some, but frankly had a bit of sticker shock after the Sepia...( stupid me, I grabbed $20 off the dresser and went to buy some sellenium - I got to the store and it was $24.99 for a quart bottle! Canadian dollars of course, surely its less in real money )

 

[ann]

there are other brands of selenium, none of them cheap.

Fotospeed has a version, Patterson has one, Tetnal another.

Many feel it is best to use the liquid concentrate. You can ; however, mix from scratch, but usually only for folks with ventilation hoods.

Ratios can vary , with the lowest creating the most dramatic changes.

We use 1:3 quite often, with great result. Of course, as has been mentioned the paper type dicatates the results, and even that is used will effect the change.

Selenium can be re-used over and over again, so the price is not as high as one thinks. Sepia activator can't be kept for years, but selenium can. Just a thought for consideration of the cost ratio per print.

 

[geraldatwork]

Wow, Gerald, that is a very strong mix for paper - what is your rationale behind going this route? Do you have a particular need you ae working to meet, or is this just what has worked well for you? I'm just curious to learn.

As far Sellenium - is it only avialable from Kodak? Is it only available in liquid concentrate? I was going to try some, but frankly had a bit of sticker shock after the Sepia...( stupid me, I grabbed $20 off the dresser and went to buy some sellenium - I got to the store and it was $24.99 for a quart bottle! Canadian dollars of course, surely its less in real money )

Unless I'm still dizzy from my procedure yesterday the 1+4 Fixer strength for one minute is for the rapid washing of fiber paper. The theory being the less time the paper has to absorb the fixer the quicker and easier it can be washed out using water and hypo clear.

I believe it is available from a few sources. I buy the smaller bottle probably 8 ounces for about $8 US by Kodak and it makes enough for a good size bath with a little left over for replinishment. The solution lasts a long time.

 

[ann]

sorry, i misread the question about the ratio being strong, thinking of the selenium rather than the fixer.,

Ilford recomends a strong ratio for fiber prints, which we have been using , along with their archival process. The prints have been holding up for many years with that method.

 

[gnashings]

Thanks - I think my orginal post was a bit confusing - one part about the fixer, one about the toner - the confusion is my fault.
Either way, thaks for sifting through it!

I am glad to hear that Selenium is reuseable - that certainly makes it fairly affordable.

I know some people use the Sepia bleach bath before selenium, or use both toners - I think there is a lot of fun in experimenting alone!

 

[dancqu]

Ilford recomends a strong ratio for fiber prints, which
we have been using , along with their archival process.
The prints have been holding up for many years with
that method.

I do not believe Ilford recommends their 1:4 film strength
for paper routine. Rather it is suggested for the purpose of
rapid processing. The 5-10-5 minute wash-hca-wash sequence
of 20 minutes is for those who need prints sooner than the
more usual 3 plus 30 minute routine will allow.

The 5-10-5 sequence with it's 1:4 dilution is a big waste
of fixer. It should be noted that the 1:9 paper strength fix
has the same capacity as the 1:4 film strength fix; 10 8x10s
per liter of working strength. So you've 50 prints 1:4 or
100 prints 1:9 per liter of concentrate.

If Ilford recommends anything I think it must be the
two bath method. With that method 200 8x10 prints per
liter of concentrate are possible.

I use fixer very dilute, one shot, for single bath archival
results and great capacity. Dan