First experiment in displaying ortho lith film over black

[Donald Qualls]

Ive seen some people do amazing work with tumeric.. but I have no idea as to the longevity of tumeric toning. Any ideas?

Never even heard of toning with turmeric.

 

[removed account4]

The cyanotype toning ive seen and tried is so pleasing. Ive seen some people do amazing work with tumeric.. but I have no idea as to the longevity of tumeric toning. Any ideas?

Ive also experimented with brushing acrylic gel medium on the dried cyanotype. It gives it a wet look.

I haven't experimented with turmeric but I've made dilute solutions of baking soda and brush stroked it on various parts of a print and rinsed with running water
it bleaches the blue and gives yellows and greens, you can do similar things with borax (40 mule is fine no need to go all chemistry lab grade for any of this )
and still others with ammonia to give different cyanotype tones ... you have to make sure you wash the prints off really well, just a little of the toning bleach will
ruin your print if left in. if you ever get a chance purchase Christopher Jame's alternative photography book. he has a whole lot of information in there about toning
and other processes you might be interested in. the book is readily available on amazon.

 

[Candlejack]

Just realizing something that I should double check with yall. Ilford rapid fixer 1:4 dilution for film I believe, is an acceptable fixer for ortho lith film.. correct?

 

[koraks]

Ilford rapid fixer 1:4 dilution for film I believe, is an acceptable fixer for ortho lith film.. correct?

Yeah, fixer is pretty much fixer. No worries.

Interested to hear about the turmeric toner thing; never heard of that. I've heard it being used for anthotypes and I can see how it could be used as a pigment for pigment based processes (e.g. gum bichromate).

As to cyanotype toning, particularly with tea: not only does the tea tone the image, it also stains the paper...how badly it does so depends on the tea, duration of toning etc. It can get pretty bad...Apparently pure tannic acid gives a cleaner toning process with less (or even no) toning, but I haven't tried it myself. I did the tea thing several times, but it didn't really catch on with me.
One of the more fascinating toners for cyanotypes I used was a concentrate made from boiling crushed acorns for a few hours and then filtering and reducing the liquid. Smelly business, but it gave a pretty nice reddish-purple tone to cyanotypes.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Yeah, fixer is pretty much fixer. No worries.

The only exception I know of to this is microfilms -- rapid fixer can bleach image silver in microfilm (because it's so incredibly small). It does this in all films, really, but only microfilm has small enough image grains to see the effect. General rule: don't overfix microfilm in rapid fixer. Ortho Litho should be fine at reasonable times.

 

[Candlejack]

Yeah, fixer is pretty much fixer. No worries.

Interested to hear about the turmeric toner thing; never heard of that. I've heard it being used for anthotypes and I can see how it could be used as a pigment for pigment based processes (e.g. gum bichromate).

As to cyanotype toning, particularly with tea: not only does the tea tone the image, it also stains the paper...how badly it does so depends on the tea, duration of toning etc. It can get pretty bad...Apparently pure tannic acid gives a cleaner toning process with less (or even no) toning, but I haven't tried it myself. I did the tea thing several times, but it didn't really catch on with me.
One of the more fascinating toners for cyanotypes I used was a concentrate made from boiling crushed acorns for a few hours and then filtering and reducing the liquid. Smelly business, but it gave a pretty nice reddish-purple tone to cyanotypes.

The acorn idea seems interesting! It immediately made me think of walnut crystals I have.. (i believe its formed from boiled down walnut husks) i can try that as a toner!

 

[koraks]

You can try pretty much anything as a toner, that's the fun of it

The only exception I know of to this is microfilms -- rapid fixer can bleach image silver in microfilm (because it's so incredibly small)

Hm, maybe. I'm skeptical, though. I was told the same about collodion images - that rapid fixer would dissolve the silver because it's so small (after all...it's colloidal!) Didn't notice that however and merrily used rapid fixer for all my collodion negatives and ambrotypes...

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've used rapid fixer for microfilm, too. It's not that it won't work; nor even that it'll bleach the image right away -- it's that, contrary to the usual advice, with rapid fixer and extremely fine silver, you can overfix and lose density you wanted by doing so. Microfilm is cleared in seconds and fully fixed in under a minute; fifteen minutes in rapid fixer is enough to start seeing some loss. Likely something similar happens with collodion. BTW, collodion is the name of the specific chemical used to create the emulsion in wet plate photos, it doesn't imply colloidal particle size in the developed image silver -- the two words aren't actually related. The most likely place you'd encounter genuine colloidal silver (if you're not a health nut spending way too much in an effort to turn youself into a Smurf) is in the filter layers in color films. The colloidal layer blocks blue light very efficiently, so the unavoidable blue sensitivity of the red-sensitive layer doesn't cause color crossover (unless you redscale roll the film).

 

[M Carter]

You could also try developing the Ortho Lith in a print developer like Dektol 1+3 (or even higher dilutions, like the 1+9 usually used for film in Dektol) -- you'll get lower contrast, which you want/need, without having to shorten development so far you have trouble with consistency and evenness. Some say it won't work well, but we processed Kodalith in Dektol when I was in high school (though we did it at print strength, in print trays, under safelight, so we could snatch it at the right stage -- which is a recipe for inconsistent development).

This is my process for Ortho-Litho film as well, though I use Liquidol (basically the same working methods as Dektol); but sometimes I go extremely dilute, like mixing the stock 1+9 (Liquidol's tray dilution for paper) with 3 or 4 parts water. I've found snatch-development to be a recipe for uneven development in mids and highs, you really need the stuff to be in the soup for an adequate time. But with dilute paper development, times are still reasonably fast. Just watch for developer exhaustion and keep good notes.

Once you get to tray developing under safelight, you can do things like shoot a scene with fairly even lighting across the frame, cut the sheet into strips, and experiment away with developing dilutions. It's much like working with paper, since you can think "test strips" - well, paper doesn't need the prewash litho film requires!

With tray developing, agitation can be an excellent control to tame contrast. Agitate gently for 20-30 seconds and then let it rest while you watch - developer will exhaust in the more dense areas, allowing the shadows to catch up; give the tray a little nudge every 30 seconds or so. A white developing tray is really handy of course, and you have to learn to compensate for the visual difference before and after fixing.

 

[Donald Qualls]

you have to learn to compensate for the visual difference before and after fixing.

This applies to any form of development by inspection.

 

[M Carter]

This applies to any form of development by inspection.

True, but with film, the difference is remarkably more pronounced than paper. You're going from pre-fixed, which is much like paper with a matte white surface across the image, to transparent.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I agree, but I was specifically thinking of DBI as usually applied to film and film-like materials. Wet plate is commonly processed by inspection, for instance, and it used to be fairly routine to use a very, very dim green safelight to develop panchromatic film by inspection (these days, the few who still do this mostly use infrared illumination and night vision goggles). X-ray film is orthochromatic, so lends itself to DBI under red safelight.

As you note, a far larger visual difference then paper (I always had trouble telling an unfixed print from a fully fixed one under safelight).

 

[koraks]

fifteen minutes in rapid fixer is enough to start seeing some loss. Likely something similar happens with collodion.

Yeah, but who puts film or collodion images in fixer for 15 minutes...

BTW, collodion is the name of the specific chemical used to create the emulsion in wet plate photos, it doesn't imply colloidal particle size in the developed image silver -- the two words aren't actually related.

I know that. But coincidentally, the silver that us created on e.g. an ambrotype is in fact colloidal. You can tell by the color; it's pale yellow.

 

[removed account4]

Yeah, but who puts film or collodion images in fixer for 15 minutes...

Maybe a weak concentration of SODIUM Thiosulfate not Ammonium Thiosulfate ?
I think you were supposed to say that like Mr T used to say weren't you " I pity the fool who leaves their film and collodion images in fixer for 15 minutes!"

 

[koraks]

I think you were supposed to say that like Mr T used to say weren't you " I pity the fool who leaves their film and collodion images in fixer for 15 minutes!"

 

[radiant]

very dim green safelight to develop panchromatic film

I've never understood this. Green sits in the middle of visible spectrum, is there some known "gap" in sensitivity on green with panchromatic?

You can always fix all films in visible light after decent stop bath. And also: for example Foma 100 5x7" sheet looses 99% of its excessive silver under 30 seconds.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Green sits in the middle of visible spectrum, is there some known "gap" in sensitivity on green with panchromatic?

As I understand it, it's a combination of factors. The long end of green (the yellower end) is the peak of sensitivity of the low-light rod cells in the retina, allowing the light to be as dim as possible while allowing the operator to see something, and after the prewash or developer washes out the spectral sensitizers, the film has significantly less sensitivity outside the UV-to-blue range. The combination makes green to yellow-green the best light to use for this application (it's also used for the even dimmer lights allowed in a film coating and confectioning operation, so the operators can see well enough to navigate between machines and check for jams and misfeeds without a full shutdown -- because there is a sensitivity dip near this color -- the crossover between the green and red sensitizing dyes -- in most panchro films).

 

[radiant]

As I understand it, it's a combination of factors. The long end of green (the yellower end) is the peak of sensitivity of the low-light rod cells in the retina, allowing the light to be as dim as possible while allowing the operator to see something, and after the prewash or developer washes out the spectral sensitizers, the film has significantly less sensitivity outside the UV-to-blue range. The combination makes green to yellow-green the best light to use for this application (it's also used for the even dimmer lights allowed in a film coating and confectioning operation, so the operators can see well enough to navigate between machines and check for jams and misfeeds without a full shutdown -- because there is a sensitivity dip near this color -- the crossover between the green and red sensitizing dyes -- in most panchro films).

Thank you - a good answer. And interesting too!

 

[Candlejack]

After looking around, it seems like a polyester base is most achival. I looked and emailed to see if the arista ortho lith was polyester base.. so far no results.

Anyone know if the base is polyester?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Within your lifetime, the difference between acetate and polyester is moot. Both will outlast you, if correctly fixed and washed and stored.

 

[Candlejack]

Within your lifetime, the difference between acetate and polyester is moot. Both will outlast you, if correctly fixed and washed and stored.

Yup. Im thinking sandwhiched between glass. Maybe sprayed with a varnish (since they lacquered ambrotypes) and either archival paint or paper behind it will be good

 

[M Carter]

Yup. Im thinking sandwhiched between glass. Maybe sprayed with a varnish (since they lacquered ambrotypes) and either archival paint or paper behind it will be good

I'd guess you don't want the film contacting glass, for the same reasons you don't want prints pressing against glass - eventually getting stuck, or seeing those puddle-like areas where some of the emulsion is sticking to the glass. Framing shops sell those thin plastic spacer-things that slide onto the edges of the framing glass and lift it away from a surface, which is easier to deal with than shadow-boxing with matt board strips in my experience.

 

[removed account4]

I'd guess you don't want the film contacting glass, for the same reasons you don't want prints pressing against glass - eventually getting stuck, or seeing those puddle-like areas where some of the emulsion is sticking to the glass. Framing shops sell those thin plastic spacer-things that slide onto the edges of the framing glass and lift it away from a surface, which is easier to deal with than shadow-boxing with matt board strips in my experience.

+1
getting stuck emulsion separate from glass is a real PITA

 

[Candlejack]

+1
getting stuck emulsion separate from glass is a real PITA

Yup, a mat or space will def be necessary then!