First colour print

digiconvert · Mar 30, 2006

I have just printed my first colour print from a lab processed print. the scanned image from the lab looks like this Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed whilst my print looks like
Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed
Obviuosly it's no work of art and I know it is undeveloped in the corners -first try with minimal chem in dish, in case it as a total disiaster.
I'm actually quite pleased but would welcome advice on the changes to filtration needed. I used 65M 55Y 0C as recommended on the box (Kodak supra endura) but it seems to much cyan is present - should I add cyan , idf so what would be a good start point ?

Any advice on this gratefully received, as would advice on how to get the paper in the right place under the enlarger- I assume you can't use the red filter and it's a pain in the dark.

Cheers CJB

Nick Zentena · Mar 30, 2006

I'm not the best at judging anything from the monitor but Start by getting the exposure right. Don't worry about colour balance yet. Once it's right then see. If it's still Cyan then subtract some M and Y.

Photo Engineer · Mar 30, 2006

I would try 60M 45Y (it appears more blue to me than cyan) and close down about 1/2 to 1 stop in f stop.

PE

donbga · Mar 30, 2006

digiconvert said:
I have just printed my first colour print from a lab processed print. the scanned image from the lab looks like this Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed whilst my print looks like
Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed
Obviuosly it's no work of art and I know it is undeveloped in the corners -first try with minimal chem in dish, in case it as a total disiaster.
I'm actually quite pleased but would welcome advice on the changes to filtration needed. I used 65M 55Y 0C as recommended on the box (Kodak supra endura) but it seems to much cyan is present - should I add cyan , idf so what would be a good start point ?

Any advice on this gratefully received, as would advice on how to get the paper in the right place under the enlarger- I assume you can't use the red filter and it's a pain in the dark.

Cheers CJB

The first rule of thumb for color printing is to make a print with the correct density and then color correct from that.

Photo Engineer · Mar 30, 2006

Dongba;

You are absolutely right, make one change at a time, the first one being to get the best exposure.

I was speaking in terms of what I would do and that is not good advice for me to give to a beginner. Sorry about that to you all.

PE

MattKing · Mar 30, 2006

digiconvert said:
Any advice on this gratefully received, as would advice on how to get the paper in the right place under the enlarger- I assume you can't use the red filter and it's a pain in the dark.

Cheers CJB

Do you have an easel that holds your paper? If not, you should try to get one - a good, heavy easel is very important.

If you have an easel, and it is not staying stationary when you load the paper, there are a number of tricks that may help. The rubberized shelf lining material used in some kitchens can help - just make sure you get some that rolls out flat.

digiconvert · Mar 31, 2006

MattKing said:
Do you have an easel that holds your paper? If not, you should try to get one ....

Yes I have an easel I guess I just need more practice working without a safelight, I am led to believe that colour film is too sensitive to use on.

Thanks to everyone for the advice- looking at my testg strip I chose a time that was probably a little too long so I will repeat soon. I am using filters at the moment as I need to do work on the colour head I rescued from the local college, I need to be sure I can do the colour printing before I put the time into that.

Photo Engineer · Mar 31, 2006

To change exposure with color paper, it is always best to change the lens opening (f stop) rather than time. Changing the time can affect color balance more than changing f stop.

PE

pentaxuser · Mar 31, 2006

CJB. As far as safelights are concerned have a look at some threads on safelights and colour. I use a DUKA 10 which gives good light and is safe. There are other safelights as well. Sodium light is particularly good.

I know that some colour printers get used to doing it entirely in the dark but I have to admit that if "in the dark" was the only way, I'd probably give it up.

pentaxuser

digiconvert · Mar 31, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
To change exposure with color paper, it is always best to change the lens opening (f stop) rather than time. Changing the time can affect color balance more than changing f stop.

PE

Thanks for the advice-this is really a great place.

Photo Engineer · Mar 31, 2006

For safelight, use the Wratten 13 or equivalent, with about a 10 watt bulb at about 4 feet minimum. This should be indirect light facing away from any paper area such as your easel or cutting board.

This will probably not fog your paper, but I suggest you run a test first. The new color papers have increased green speed and may fog just a little easier now than before with the earlier Endura and Supra III.

PE

davetravis · Mar 31, 2006

Yes I have an easel I guess I just need more practice working without a safelight, I am led to believe that colour film is too sensitive to use on.

Congrats on your first time!!!
Practice, practice, practice loading that paper!
Save this first print, use the back, or some construction board to project onto while cropping and focusing.
I use a Ganz Speed Easel for each size, and get great stability and perfect borders.
Good luck.
Long live Ciba!!!

digiconvert · Apr 1, 2006

davetravis said:
Congrats on your first time!!!

Thank you, it feels GOOD

davetravis said:
Save this first print, use the back, or some construction board to project onto while cropping and focusing.
Good luck.
Long live Ciba!!!

It's being kept no worries ! As to the idea of using a gash piece for focus cropping ....why didn't I think of that ? Brilliant ideas are usually simple. I feel confident that there will be a steady supply of discarded prints

Ed Sukach · Apr 1, 2006

I think my next attempt would be with 10cc less yellow, to 65M, 45Y, 00C - with 1/2 stop less exposure. One thing to remember is that as the density (intensity) of the color filtration decreases, the overall strength of the light reaching the paper increases, they are inextricably linked - which, without modification, would result in a more dense print. I would *guess* that 10cc yellow correction would too much ... but I tend to use the "Old Artillery Rule": Overcorrect and go from there.
Once in a while, something reminds me of how conditioned my reflexes have become. I have to stop and think, now ... less yellow filtration - with negative material - will have the opposite effect on the print - less cyan.

digiconvert · Apr 2, 2006

I think I'm getting there !.. More advice please.

Having tried the advice offerred I am now using 65M 50Y as the start point for printing on my Endura paper. The attached is my latest output;
Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed
And I am quite pleased with the tones/exposure. (The bits are mainly from my scanner)
Now ..further questions;
-I assume that like mono work I discard the dev and keep the Blix, is that correct ? How long should the Blix last once diluted ?
-I have looked at the options for processing other than in trays. The most cost effective seems to be a Jobo Roller base and a paper tank. Can this be used with Jobo bottles as with a CPE i.e pour the chem in by screwing a bottle on and inverting ? Anyone any advice on timings/technique with this ?
-Anyone any suggestions as to a cost effective way of processing C-41 for a film a month ? I have heard a bowl of warm water is adequate-comments ?

Thanks for all of the help so far

Photo Engineer · Apr 2, 2006

This picture, compared to the last picture you posted has moved more than 0.05Y, therefore something else is at work such as different lighting (obvious), different film or film process, or something in the paper process (obvious seeing the lack of development in the last posted pics). Therefore, it is hard to judge what is going on.

This one needs a bit more magenta IMO (maybe a bit more red, as the skin tones are hard to judge), and less exposure with some dodging in the face and arm.

You can keep the stop bath until it begins to lose its acidic odor (I use 2% acetic acid). It will turn bright pink. Ignore the color, it won't hurt.

Blix, once mixed, will keep about 1 month, but when in use, I replenish with fresh by removing 100 ml for every 25 8x10 (approx) and replacing with 100 ml of unused blix to every liter of used. That way, I just mix a small amount after then initial batch and just keep using it.

The developer is throw away after every use.

My C41 developer, in a 1 gal kit keeps more than 1 month in a sealed bottle.

PE

HolgaPhile · Apr 2, 2006

Congrats on you first colour print digi. Best bit of advise I was give was lock yourself away with 50 sheets of paper and don't come out till you have finished the lot.

Personally I find colour more dificult than B&W because it is less tolerant hitting the sweet spot on the paper can be difficult so I admire anyone who attempts it.

Enjoy.

Ed Sukach · Apr 2, 2006

Uh... I don't know if I'd judge color balance from a scan transmitted over the internet lines... It all depends on your here and now "eye" perception of the print (or, better yet, color analyzer data). I, myself have gone through the "too green" gauntlet, seemingly without end, and the color balance seemed FINE on this end.. I posted the **same** (note **) to another "image accepting" site, and got a few "too magenta" critiques (magenta is the opposite of green)... so the net result is ... no concrete conclusion... not from an internet image, anyway.

Seeing that the the scales of "cc" units vary from enlarger manufacturer to enlarger manufacturer... I wouldn't necessarily expect "5cc" of color modification in any given enlarging system to result in .05 gamma change in density of a color layer. Maybe .. maybe not. Experience is the only way to tell.

Photo Engineer · Apr 2, 2006

Ed;

I understand what you say. I said what I did based on two things.

One is that I assumed that the scanner and software from one person without manipulation would give some degree of constancy otherwise we could never view digital color images.

The second was that a 0.05 density change is supposed to effect a 0.05 log E change in speed of a layer. I have heard all of the arguments you state, but having done actual sensitometry across dozens of color enlargers and cc filters, I have found that to be true if the filters have not faded appreciably.

Having said that, I do agree with you, but going back to the original pictures the change appears 'wrong' to me. After having made, literally, thousands of prints per week, by hand, at one time or another, I have to rely on some sort of intuition to say something is wrong. Having done scans, and assuming no manipulation of the scan, I feel something is wrong between the first set and the second.

The first set appeared blue or cyan to me, and the latest picture appears magenta or red to me but with a 0.05 yellow decrease. Since others viewing the first picture seemed to agree on the color balance and general filter change this latest picture puzzles me and I stated my comments above regarding possible reasons.

PE

ggriffi · Apr 2, 2006

In the color class that I took we had a set of "color correction" filters that we used after getting exposure correct to help with said correction, I believe that I have seen these listed in a freestyle catalog.

Freestyle

g

Photo Engineer · Apr 2, 2006

Kodak prints a book on color printing with examples and CC filters.

From an experience standpoint, you have to remember that I helped design one of the versions of Kodak color paper (Ektacolor 30/37) and have coated it and processed color papers for nearly 50 years. I will try to help as much as possible, and often due to the interposition of digital scans it makes my work harder, but I will do the best I can to pass on my skills.

I am thinking of a workshop in advanced color printing to cover a host of things I see here on APUG and on PN as well. I want to help, but please don't consider me omniscient or omnipotent. I'm just experienced.

PE

MattKing · Apr 3, 2006

The second example looks to me as if it might be of a scene lit with one or more stage lights. As such, there could be gels used in the light source, and the source of illumination could be any of a number of sources, with any of a number potential colour temperatures.

This is a very hard way to learn colour printing!

It is sort of like trying to learn to print black and white, using the most difficult negative available.

I would suggest that for your first colour printing experiments, you try to use a negative that you have reason to believe yields a well exposed, colour balanced print. If you have an example print, that appears well done, from the same negative, then there is no shame in trying to duplicate it, and much to learn from the exercise.

If you don't have such an example at hand, try to use one that records a scene with even light, of reasonable contrast, and consistent colour.

Once you have acquired facility with the straightforward negatives, there is a world of difficult negatives out there to take on (if you need any, I'm sure I can find some amongst mine )

Good luck, and enjoy yourself!

Nick Zentena · Apr 3, 2006

digiconvert said:
Now ..further questions;
-I assume that like mono work I discard the dev and keep the Blix, is that correct ? How long should the Blix last once diluted ?
-I have looked at the options for processing other than in trays. The most cost effective seems to be a Jobo Roller base and a paper tank. Can this be used with Jobo bottles as with a CPE i.e pour the chem in by screwing a bottle on and inverting ? Anyone any advice on timings/technique with this ?
-Anyone any suggestions as to a cost effective way of processing C-41 for a film a month ? I have heard a bowl of warm water is adequate-comments ?

I've described my setup way too many times-) Do a search. Basically I use Jobo tanks for both film and paper. For tempering I use a picnic cooler with a fish tank heater. To roll the tank I use print motorbase hooked up to a gralab 300 timer. Works just a perfect for paper and film.

If you really mean 1 roll at a time then the system isn't for you. It only works with the midsized tank [5 35mm or 3 120 at least] You could put one roll in the tank but you'll waste chemicals. OTOH for 120 even putting one roll in the tank wastes less chemicals then a normal inversion tank would.

On the question about blix and chemicals. The chemical docs should tell you that. I reuse everything for RA-4. I make up 2x the blix that I do developer. Blix has never gone off for me. OTOH developer won't keep that long. If you're doing a prewash it'll keep better. If not the paper will suck up developer. Leading to half full developer bottle.

Nick Zentena · Apr 3, 2006

ggriffi said:
In the color class that I took we had a set of "color correction" filters that we used after getting exposure correct to help with said correction, I believe that I have seen these listed in a freestyle catalog.

Freestyle

g

Viewing filters? I never got the hang of them.

Ed Sukach · Apr 3, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
The second was that a 0.05 density change is supposed to effect a 0.05 log E change in speed of a layer. I have heard all of the arguments you state, but having done actual sensitometry across dozens of color enlargers and cc filters, I have found that to be true if the filters have not faded appreciably.
PE

I agree, a change of .05 "density change" is supposed to effect a change of .05 gamma...
But that was not what I was saying. The calibration of dichroic color heads ("cc" units) does *NOT* seem to conform to any given standard. As far as I can tell, there is no guarantee that a 5 "cc" change will result in a change of .05 in filter density. Kodak. Leitz, and others do not seem to follow the same linearity - that is why Ilford gives different contrast modification numbers for different enlarging systems.

First colour print

digiconvert

Nick Zentena

Photo Engineer

donbga

Photo Engineer

MattKing

Moderator

digiconvert

Photo Engineer

pentaxuser

digiconvert

Photo Engineer

davetravis

digiconvert

Ed Sukach

digiconvert

Photo Engineer

HolgaPhile

Ed Sukach

Photo Engineer

ggriffi

Photo Engineer

MattKing

Moderator

Nick Zentena

Nick Zentena

Ed Sukach

First colour print

Moderator

Moderator

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