Fine Grain

[newcan1]

I have a ton of Ansco 35mm b&w film that as far as I can tell expired in the 1970's. It was rated 400ASA but now shoots reliably at 80ASA. The grain is quite coarse, and that lends itself well to certain subjects. I was wondering, though, how much developer choice can really affect grain size. I tend to use D-76, but I am looking for suggestions for developers and developer formulae that could significantly reduce grain. Suggestions welcome.

 

[michaelorr]

Perceptol stock or 1:1 It is a metol only developer and the metol is the "grain dissolver" of repute. Film EI may may should be derated a little bit, though, so going to a fine grain developer may not be the best handling strategy for your film. Ilford does say that their DD-X is good for "fine grain" results, but then any other similar product is likely to produce no perceptable discriminators between the contenders.

I refer to Barry Thornton "Edge Of Darkness" for the reputation.

Thornton was writing about roll film 120 and 35

I use perceptol on all my sheet film. But i cannot attest to exhaustive or even acecdotal grain observations. in 4x5 i use 1:2 with FP4 to allegedly accentuate a little more of edge effect. For 8x10 is am now using 1:1 because the development time is so long, and n- development is a challenge to achieve any density.

Maybe someone wants to suggest using xtol.

>michael

 

[Vaughn]

Sodium sulfite is a silver solvent (and preservative) in many developers -- diluting such developers weakens the solvent action, so in theory, D-76 straight will give slightly less noticable grain than when mixed 1:1. I used Microdol-X diluted 1:3 to moderate the action of the silver solvent -- trading some grain reduction for a little more sharpness.

 

[newcan1]

On a search on here, a found a formula for "Rayco Ultra Fine-Grain B&W Negative Developer". It uses Hydroquinone and CD4 as developing agents, and 100g/L sodium sulphite. I have seen CD4 referenced in formulas for producing full tones from films such as Technical Pan, but is it considered to have fine grain characteristics when used in b&w developers?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

On a search on here, a found a formula for "Rayco Ultra Fine-Grain B&W Negative Developer". It uses Hydroquinone and CD4 as developing agents, and 100g/L sodium sulphite. I have seen CD4 referenced in formulas for producing full tones from films such as Technical Pan, but is it considered to have fine grain characteristics when used in b&w developers?

The color developing agents like CD-4 are derivatives of paraphenylenediamine which is a strong silver halide solvent. They are also more expensive and can cause allergic reactions. High contrast films like TP and microfilms require a softer working developing agent than would be used with regular films. So unless you are using TP or microfilm for continuous tome negatives then CD-4 really offers no advantage in this respect. If you want fine grain then developers like Perceptol, Microdol-X or D-25 probably produce grain as fine as Rayco Ultra at much less cost.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have used that developer on Tech Pan film, around 5-6 years ago. As a person with C41 chemistry to hand, I had, still have, plenty of CD4 to hand, so a couple of us with genuine Tech Pan developer from Kodak and the mixed up fine grain developer using CD4 as per your link, and did a bit of fun fiddling one weekend.

The results were not as great as we thought they may have been. The Tech Pan negatives developed in Kodak Tech Pan developer were really great, the Tech Pan film developed in the home brew using CD4 was not as good. That said, it wasn't bad either, just that the original Kodak super fine grain developer designed for Tech Pan film was better.

As Gerald notes, Tech Pan film, which was derived from Lithographic film and used by high altitude aeroplanes, if I remember correctly, so a quite soft developer is required. Tech Pan also went into the Infrared frequency to cut through atmospheric haze

I don't have access to my negatives as I'm on the road, I get back in July...

Mick.

 

[michaelorr]

@Vaughn fully corrected me as i went back to my source to look it up - the low dilutions of the developer assures the grain dissolving of sodium sulfite. My bad on the earlier post. The metol gives enhanced edge development (sharper) which is opposite of dissolving grain.

This artifact on perceptol formula: http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=681 I had read elsewhere (maybe in Thornton book) that the Na2SO3 weight in the volume of water should be no less than 50gm per L in the working solution to maintain its grain dissolving property. That is why the the dilution for working (using perceptol) is 1+1 or greater where the stock contains 100g per L.

Still - the premise remains that the developers used at full strength or 1+1 aforementioned should produce the finest grain results.