Fine grain dev?

jaquesthesnack · Oct 2, 2006

Hello all!

I shoot 135-film and uses almost exclusively tri-x for my B/W´s. I´m quite new in the game of developing film myself (and equally new to enlagerwork) but have a workflow that give me consistent and good results. However some times I´d wish for less grain in my pictures. I fell that some of my shoots with lots of details in it would have been better with a finer grain. I do understand that the grain in tri-x is part of the films caracteristics and usually I like it and I like the idea of using only one sort of film.

I develop my film in T-max dev for 6 min, agitate first 30s then two flips of the tank every 30s.

When my tri-x is pushed to IE1600 and developed with T-max dev for 9 min the result is very good, higher contrast, yes, but the grain is not bigger than for normal processing.

Questions:
Can I stick with my tri-x and change to a fine grain developer to achieve less grain in sertain situations?

What are the tradeoffs for a fine grain when using a fine grain developer?

What developer should a shoose for fine grain?

Should I stick to my developer and simply change to a Iso100 film when I´m after a finer grain?

I live on the dark side of the earth (Sweden) so I´ve come to like the speed of the Tri-x. (Shooting mainly iso100 positives in Sweden requires a steady hand or a tripod more than half the year......)

My desision to use T-max developer is based on the fact that the salesman in the photoshop (Kameradoktorn to all swedes) said it was easy to use and easy to find.

Best Regards

Jacob

Lee L · Oct 2, 2006

Jacob,

Are you looking for a commercial developer, or do you want to mix your own? How do you want to rate your Tri-X... 200, 400, 800, 1600? Answers to these questions will help narrow the choices from a field that's too large for a single post answer.

Lee

m_liddell · Oct 2, 2006

T-max developer doesn't seem to have many fans - I have never used it.

I develop tri-x in xtol 1:1 and am very pleased with the grain, it's a good combination and is quite popular. Fine grain developers often sacrifice film speed (eg perceptol) but xtol gives a bit of a speed increase.

For EI1600 I would definitly go for diafine. I've started using it recently with excellent results.

jaquesthesnack · Oct 2, 2006

I wrote a long threat at the beginning but forgot some points...

Anyhow, I rate the tri-x at 400. I have yet to discover pull-processing other than the odd mistake of running a sensia 100 thru the camera att IE25... (It turned out to be som keepers on that roll anyway.)

I think mixing my own developer seems like a hassle, and even if I haven´t tried any powder developers I like the ease of fluid consentrate.

Thanks for the answers, I fell I´m a bit lost since I, in the past only shot positives and when the odd B/W film was used it was developed at a comersial lab.

Claire Senft · Oct 2, 2006

Here is generally with what happens when one uses a fine grain developer. film speed is reduced, sharpness is reduced, grain is finer The loss of speed is on the order of 1 stop. The fineness grain is achieved by various chemical means that adds some "mushiness" which is what is I have meant when I said loss of sharpness. The gradation characteristics change follow any developer change..D76 will produce different gradation than Microphen. This is to be expected. Changing developers may cause gradation changes that can be of a nature that is very difficult to see or of a more pronounced character that is more easily noticed. When changing from a standard developer to a fine grain developer this change of gradation will be generally be more pronounced...not worse..not better but different.

Perhaps for those photos that will require finer grain changing to 400Tmax might be a better solution, if you know ahead of time that you will want finer grain.

Perhaps your best choice is to accept more graininess than you would prefer
as not worth bothering about.

Pushing film thru additional development will certainly produce more grain.

Gerald Koch · Oct 2, 2006

If you are looking for a liquid developer, why don't you try Agfa Studional (Rodinal Special). This is a fine grain developer and now that A&O is producing Agfa chemicals it should be readily available again in Europe.

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2006

Courtesy of some advice from Leon whom I wish to thank, I recently switched from using Perceptol stock solution with HP5+ to using Perceptol at 1:3. The prints are certainly sharper and I got a pleasant surprise a few nights ago when I decided to enlarge part of a neg. To get the crop to the size I needed to fill a 12.5 by 20cm print I ended up with a projection on the easel that must have been about 30cm by 40cm.

I was amazed at how grain free the print was and therefore how grain free printing the whole negative at 30 by 40 would have been .

So for what it is worth and assuming tri-X is similar to HP5+,which i think it is I would be tempted to try tri-X and perceptol at a dilution of 1:3. I cannot give times etc as I have never tried Tri-X

Better still why not give HP5+( rated at EI 250) and Perceptol a try. Again courtesy of Leon, try development of 18 minutes at 24 degrees centrigrade.

Agitate slowly but continuously for the first 30 secs then 1 inversion every 30seconds.

It has worked very well for me.

pentaxuser

Neal · Oct 2, 2006

Dear Jacob,

T-Max is a super developer for shadows, but it's not the best choice if fine grain is one of your main goals. Having said that, slower film is generally a better choice to reduce grain than changing developer.

Neal Wydra

raucousimages · Oct 3, 2006

Tri-X is not a fine grain film. No mater what developer you use it is not going to give you a fine grain. If you like the grainy look of Tri-X use Tri-X. If you want fine grain use somthing else. (T-max, FP4, HP5) One film will not give you every result you may want just by useing different developers.

nworth · Oct 3, 2006

The graininess of a film is largely determined in the manufacture of the film these days, but the developer does have some effect on the appearance of the grain. Many people like Tri-X, in part, because of its grain structure. While not a very fine grain film, the grain is reasonably fine and very smooth.

The tradeoffs involved in using a fine-grain developer versus a more normal sort usually involve some loss in acutance and apparent sharpness. Developers like Rodinal emphasize the grain and make it sharp edged. Rodinal itself also emphasizes apparent sharpness while keeping the beautiful gradation of Tri-X. It can be used to push Tri-X very well. Fine grain developers soften the edges of the grain. Undiluted D-76 (and its clones) and D-23 are examples. D-25 and Microdol are very fine grain formulas, which reduce apparent grain but at the cost of film speed. Undiluted D-76, however, can be used to push Tri-X with little increase in apparent grain.

jaquesthesnack · Oct 3, 2006

Hello and thanks for all the input.

Well, as far as i understand I might have to start buying some slow film to reduce grain when needed. Usually I photograph portraits and at those moments I like the grain of the tri-x.

I think i will try some other developer to see what results I´ll get. XTOL seems to come handy as it is widely spread in the swedish shops.

Is that a good choice? I don´t want the grain to be smudged out to much but.

Black Dog · Oct 3, 2006

Back in the 80s when I were just starting out in photography, fashionable hairsytles were a lot bigger than the film format I was using (35mm). I spent a lot of time and energy theying different developers to squeeze more quality from 35mm, before I sussed out that a larger format would be a lot more effective. However dilute XTOL/dilute Perceptol/Microdol X certainly help and have a look in the recipes section here when it's back up .

Tony Egan · Oct 3, 2006

I shoot a lot of TX400 for live music shots and almost exclusively use xTol 1+1which I think is great all round developer for this film. Grain has not been an issue in my eyes up to 11x14 prints. But, give Perceptol a go it is also a great developer. I tend to use 1+1 also with Perceptol but don't think it has the same "punch" for this kind of subject and xTol is better for "film speed enhancement" and shadow detail for low light work and underexposure. It's a case of matching your inputs to your desired outputs. One size does not fit all.

Simon E · Oct 3, 2006

Try Ilford DD-X if you can get hold of some, it can provide a slight boost in sensitivity (maybe EI 500~800) without a huge grain penalty.

If you use EI 1600 and develop accordingly then any film/developer combination will be rather grainy.

Simon.

Paul Howell · Oct 3, 2006

Simon E said:
Try Ilford DD-X if you can get hold of some, it can provide a slight boost in sensitivity (maybe EI 500~800) without a huge grain penalty.

If you use EI 1600 and develop accordingly then any film/developer combination will be rather grainy.

Simon.

For 30 years I shot Tri X at 320 and developed in Microdol X 1:3. I stopped using Microdol when Kodak stopped production in the quart size. I now use an Edwal 12 clone but have switched to HP5 and Tmax 400 for 35, and I like 777 with Trix as well. I assume that obtaining Edwal 12 or 777 may be a problem so I second DDX with with both TriX and HP5 as well as all of the Tmax and Delta films. I have moved from pushing TriX and HP5 to shooting Tmax 3200 at 1600 and develop in DDX at the recommended time but at 1:5 rather than 1:4. But for really fine grain Tmax 100 or Plus X is hard to beat.

j-fr · Oct 3, 2006

jaquesthesnack said:
Hello all!

Questions:
Can I stick with my tri-x and change to a fine grain developer to achieve less grain in sertain situations?

What are the tradeoffs for a fine grain when using a fine grain developer?

What developer should a shoose for fine grain?

Jacob

Try T-MAX 400 and Tetenal Ultrafin. Very fine grain, surprisingly high speed. When exposing EI 400 you get shadows like most developers would give at EI 200. For a start, try 1+24, 20 C, 11½ minut, agg. 5 seconds every 30 seconds.

For speed try T-MAX 3.200 at EI 1.600 and develop in Ultrafin 1+15, 20 C, 10 minutes. Nice normal contrast, acceptable grains.

j-fr

www.j-fr.dk

Rolleijoe · Oct 4, 2006

Jacob,

Rating @ EI 200 will shrink the grain & open up the shadows. Microdol-X is a fine-grain developer with its own "look", but not many use it these days.
X-tol can give a nice grain as well.

If you like the look from Tri-X but want finer grain, try a roll of Plus-X in
HC-110 1:50 for 6.5min. This is my preference for Tri-X & Plus-X in HC-110. The "looks" are similar, but with +X having naturally the finer grain.

T-Mud developers aren't that popular with too many people. Sounds like the clerk was looking to make a sale, to me. Agfa also makes a super nice fine grained developer known as Studional (or Rodinal Special in other parts of the globe). Gives a nice tonal range with fine grain & speed. Should be available in your area.

Ronald Moravec · Oct 4, 2006

Rollie joe has it right. EI 200 and D76 undiluted. Fine grain developers make mush.

Delta 100 at EI 50 D76 undiluted. This gives the finest grain consistent with good quality 35mm will make.

Roger Hicks · Oct 5, 2006

Rolleijoe said:
Rating @ EI 200 will shrink the grain & open up the shadows.

Yes to the latter, no to the former. More exposure always means bigger grain and reduced sharpness with conventional films. With chromogenics it means smaller grain but still reduced sharpness.

A further thought is that a slower, finer-grained film in a speed increasing developer will almost invariably give finer grain that the faster film, and the true ISO may not be very different. For example, HP5 Plus in Perceptol is maybe 200-250, while FP4 Plus in Microphen or DD-X is around 200.

Cheers,

R. (www.rogerandfrances.com -- where the free module on ISO film speeds in the Photo School may be of interest to some readers of this thread)

nalle52 · Oct 5, 2006

Hi Jacob.
I think you should try Xtol, for TriX and try also Tmax 100. Since I also are from Sweden/Stockholm I know that Kameradoktorn have this in stock. I myself use HP-5 and FP-4, but this films are not in stock all time. So it is easiest to find TriX and Tmax in most stores here.
Med Vänliga Hälsningar. Nalle

Fine grain dev?

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