"Fine Art Photography" and David Vestal

Kerik said:

"Hey kid, take a whiff of THIS!"

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At least that would keep them still enough for the exposure!

Phill

Monophoto said:

The term "pretentious" doesn't belong in a sentence with the name David Vestal.

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I don't think the OP was referring to DV as "pretentious" Rather that DV was
saying there's no need to put "fine art" in front of photogapher

jp80874 said:

Yes Kerik,
It is all about who is on the other side of the conversation. I have given up trying to explain why an old man carries a 7x17 and a wooden tripod around in a baby jogger. My wife makes enthusiastic attempts, mentioning Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, dark cloths, view cameras, etc., but I see that as an insult to AA and EW. I will never be there.

The person with a cigarette pack sized digital in his pocket wouldn't see what is there on the contact print. I have given up trying to explain the advantages of a large sheet of film and just go about my thing making pictures. I find they talk to my dog then and everyone is happy, especially the dog.

John Powers

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John,
This is the best answer I have seen in a long time. At 79 I still carry my 717 and 810 around and get the same reactions as you. However, when I show prints it is a different story and people are in awe. I guess we, and others of vintage, will just continue to do what we love and not worry about the "D" people.
Jim
Jim

After reading this thread, I'm inclined to ditch the "photographer" label in its entirety - call it pretentious or not, I'm thinking "artist with a camera", because that describes what I do - I'm an artist who uses cameras to produce his artwork. That cuts off at the knees any efforts to get me to do weddings or events.

TheFlyingCamera said:

After reading this thread, I'm inclined to ditch the "photographer" label in its entirety - call it pretentious or not, I'm thinking "artist with a camera", because that describes what I do - I'm an artist who uses cameras to produce his artwork. That cuts off at the knees any efforts to get me to do weddings or events.

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Scott:

Then they'll ask you to shoot their wedding video .

Matt

To which I'll reply- so long as you don't mind it being a single frame of wet-plate collodion on glass - that's the only way I can capture 30 minutes in a single exposure!

TheFlyingCamera said:

To which I'll reply- so long as you don't mind it being a single frame of wet-plate collodion on glass - that's the only way I can capture 30 minutes in a single exposure!

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Actually I would think that you would only do a wedding if everybody were muscular nude men wearing masks.
Now, -that- would be a wedding!

When people find out that I am a photographer, they usually ask what kind of camera I use. If they know anything about photography they ask what kind of photographs I like to 'take'. I tell them the themes I currently work on. Usually an interesting discussion follows.

I put the words 'Fine Art Photographer' on my business cards. I don't think it is pretentious. What else would I put there? It's what I do with my camera. It's not ulgy art, I'm pretty good at what I'm doing. People hang my prints on their walls for their artistic value. Not that many people, but there are a few that do. I think it differentiates me from event photographers, journalistic photographers, and snap-shooters.

Why would that be pretentious?

- Thomas

when I did have a card, 20 years ago until they ran out, it just had my name and "photography", with some contact info. David Vestal is a "New York School" Photographer. That school no longer exists. Seems to me Mr.Vestal can help people get out of the rut of producing mediocre prints in a darkroom. Any of his books tend to be long winded on technic, but if one follows procedure, the results speak for themselves. I'm glad I saw this post, I'm inclined to break out the Vestal Library here for a darkroom intensive.
cheers

I dont call myself an artist. I couldn't do that. I simply make photos. If someone wants to think of them as art, then they are free to do so.

I dont even call myself a photographer, because to me, the word 'photographer' equals with a proffession, but I'm simply a hobbyist. I say I do photography.


Not sure if that makes sense. English isn't my first language.

I don't like the term "Fine Art Photographer". not sure why.. it is sort of cliche and pretentious as stated. If someone asks what kind of photography I do after I tell them I am a photographer, I will usually say I do art work. Once I was asked if that meant I shoot pictures of artist's paintings.

Someone mentioned preferring not to be asked what kind of camera he uses. If I encounter someone who claims to be a photographer, it is the first question I ask. A person's camera choice tells me a lot about the person and their background and asperations. If they say they use an 8x10.. or a Holga, or a digital camera, or a leica or a Rolleiflex it tells me a lot of where they are technically and then I ask what kind of work they do.

TheFlyingCamera said:

...... call it pretentious or not, I'm thinking "artist with a camera", because that describes what I do - I'm an artist who uses cameras to produce his artwork. That cuts off at the knees any efforts to get me to do weddings or events.

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Interesting point Scott. Is it up to the individual to decree that he/she is an artist?

Further, I don't believe that being a wedding/event photographer excludes your from being an artist. I have seen some fantastic images done by wedding photographers that have evoked an emotional response from me.

Dinesh said:

Interesting point Scott. Is it up to the individual to decree that he/she is an artist?

Further, I don't believe that being a wedding/event photographer excludes your from being an artist. I have seen some fantastic images done by wedding photographers that have evoked an emotional response from me.

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Being an artist is easy. Every idiot and their sister are one. Being a good artist, on the other hand, is hard.

Dinesh said:

Interesting point Scott. Is it up to the individual to decree that he/she is an artist?

Further, I don't believe that being a wedding/event photographer excludes your from being an artist. I have seen some fantastic images done by wedding photographers that have evoked an emotional response from me.

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Dinesh- yes and no. I agree that wedding/event photography can be artistic. I'm thinking about the average joe's reaction to the label "photographer" versus "artist". If I say to someone "I'm a photographer", a likely reaction is "so, how much do you charge to shoot weddings/kids/bar/bat mitzvahs?". If you say "I'm an artist", they ask a very different set of questions. The working presumption is that photographer, especially any working photographer who does do weddings/portraits/commercial/etc. is NOT an artist, but only thinks they are. As a self-proclaimed artist, ones artistry is not questioned, nor is ones photographic talent, at least not to the same degree.

David A. Goldfarb said:

Personally, I get worried when someone (without a formal qualification as such) refers to him or herself as a "master."

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I get antsy when ANYONE - with or without "qualifications" calls themselves "Master" - of anything. That indicates, to me, a gross - lack of humility, and a "finality" to their interest in their discovery in the Art.

I have been fortunate in meeting - (n.b., NOT "studying under") a few of the "Great Lights" of photography, and the one common characterstic shared by all has been exactly that - a basic sense of humility. Sort of, "How the heck did I get here? I really don't deserve all this acclaim."

There is a need for pumping oneself up in PR materials and advertising copy.
I pray that I will never believe my PR. I am not that good. Then again NO ONE else is a good as theirs, either.

There is a need for pumping oneself up in PR materials and advertising copy.

On the other hand Mr Adams was not the financial and popular success he became until he hitched up to the PR man.
Regards
Bill

TheFlyingCamera said:

....As a self-proclaimed artist, ones artistry is not questioned, nor is ones photographic talent, at least not to the same degree.

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Once again, I think we differ here. I think I would tend to be more critical of someones work who called themselves an artist, rather than a photographer.

About a year ago I've run into a "master" on the steps of a photography book store and asked him if he would look at my work and recieved a cold "NO"

I put my tail between my legs and went on with my business


For a long time after I tryed to annalize this and relate it to me and how I would have handled it if I have been in photography art world for five or six decades , I think there must be a two or more sides to this , on one side you have grinded your way and paid your way to make a name, on the other hand there is this thing we call passion for photography , may be this later burns out and you don't care any more ...or maybe you have been aproached so many times by people to look at their work, you get tired of all this and care only about your own work.

But I hope I would never get to the point that my "mastery" would outway my "passion"

My last thought on this and maybe someone already said this :

"Master" or "Fine art Photographer" is a lable that is something other people call you not something you call yourself ,it just happens along the way

ILYA

ilya1963 said:

About a year ago I've run into a "master" on the steps of a photography book store and asked him if he would look at my work and recieved a cold "NO"

I put my tail between my legs and went on with my business


For a long time after I tryed to annalize this and relate it to me and how I would have handled it if I have been in photography art world for five or six decades , I think there must be a two or more sides to this , on one side you have grinded your way and paid your way to make a name, on the other hand there is this thing we call passion for photography , may be this later burns out and you don't care any more ...or maybe you have been aproached so many times by people to look at their work, you get tired of all this and care only about your own work.

But I hope I would never get to the point that my "mastery" would outway my "passion"

My last thought on this and maybe someone already said this :

"Master" or "Fine art Photographer" is a lable that is something other people call you not something you call yourself ,it just happens along the way

ILYA

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I can well understand why you received the abrupt "No" from the photographer. I'm not famous and I get requests almost daily to view portfolios. I'll be shooting in the middle of nowhere and after having driven many miles to get a cell signal I'll have to wait 10 minutes while someone's unsolicited email portfolio downloads to my phone and drains my battery. I can only imagine that a famous photographer must get vastly more requests like this than I do and while I try to maintain a certain level of courtesy, sometimes it does try my patience. Especially when the work is really poor and the photographer is really high on himself and while requesting criticism is not actually interested in hearing anything but praise.

As for the term "photographer" to me it was, and still is, a professional designation. While I know there are some very serious amateurs on this site, this site is not composed of the typical "photographer". While many of the LF carrying, mixing their own chemistry, making their own emulsion, coating their own paper, photographers may not be making a living as a photographer, their deep commitment and skill has earned them the designation.

However they and the professional photographers also share that designation with anyone who chooses to call themselves a photographer. Even if that person has never used a camera. Imagine if anyone could call themselves "doctor","lawyer" or "engineer"? How would the professional practitioners of those fields feel if anyone could just choose to use their professional designation? It is the appropriation of the title "photographer" that has gone a long way to devaluing the skills and training needed to really be one.

As for "(fine) art photographer" that is a tricky title. On one hand it is a very complimentary term, and ideally should be what others call you and not what you call yourself. However what if your profession is the production of (fine) art? When I tell people I'm a photographer, they either make an assumption, like weddings, or sometimes they ask what type. I'll usually say "landscape photographer" but then they'll ask if there's good money in photographing lawns. I then have very few options left that best describes what I do, I might say,"landscape, as in Ansel Adams" but surprisingly many people have never heard of Ansel so I'll get a blank look which means they don't know who I'm talking about but don't want to appear not to know who Ansel was.

The problem with using the term F A Photographer is that most people who use that term are purely hobbyists and it can seem really pretentious. So I don't use it.

As for my business card all it says is my name and website address. I don't even use the term photographer.

John Sexton told a story how as a young photographer he asked Brett Weston to review his portfolio. "No." Brett responded and then added, "But would you like to see my photographs?"

Brian,


I had 4 people ,who have never been in the darkroom, over couple of weeks ago watching me print , at the end of the night everybody walked away on such a high it lasted for several days...for me and them , as I was working I picked up on their exitment and learned more about myself by talking to them , so when I recieve a "NO" I don't concider it my loss .



"It is the appropriation of the title "photographer" that has gone a long way to devaluing the skills and training needed to really be one"-I agree

It started with -" you push the button we do the rest"

jp80874 said:

My wife makes enthusiastic attempts, mentioning Ansel Adams, Edward Weston, dark cloths, view cameras, etc., but I see that as an insult to AA and EW.

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I see that as a rather noble direction, rather than an insult.

I will never be there.

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Look more closely. You may well "be there" already... never mind trying to predict the future. You eyes MIGHT be clouded with a defensive shtick that exempts you from the responsibilites of doing good - really good! work.

From Ste. Julia Cameron: "Do not be afraid that the work will not be GOOD; the only danger is that the work will not BE!"

cowanw said:

There is a need for pumping oneself up in PR materials and advertising copy.
On the other hand Mr Adams was not the financial and popular success he became until he hitched up to the PR man.

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True. Interesting to consider the assumption that Ansel Adams "fit" the description of "unpretentious", although he was not specified anywhere. He did, along with many others. As I've written, it seems to be a characterstic common among the really respected "Great Lights".

Am I a "photographer"? I guess when I am photographing, I am - in the same sense as when I am skiing, I am a "skier" ... and when I am casting flies, I am thrashing the river with incomprehensively expensive equipment, slipping all over the hell on slimy rocks in a 30MPH (50KPH) current 0.01 degree (take your pick - F or C) above freeezing... (Fruedian slip left in for effect).

But - I digress. If I am asked (n.b. "if"), I will reply, "I do photography".

Titles are not important to me. In fact, I think they are negative influence - tending to cloud our images of each other, and distorting, at least, first impressions.
If you wish to know me, let's talk, or better still, work together.

On my card I just have "photography" and when people ask what is my profession, I reply "photographer". When they continue, it gets a bit tricky.
First, I have to explain that I don't have a one-hour-photo-shop.
Second, that I don't do weddings and baptisms (although funerals would have been cool).
Third, when they are puzzled in how I make money (which I don't really), I tell them that I specialize in photojournalism and portraits.
Of course, I have to explain somehow my whole business plan in purely practical, non idealistic way, how I can refuse the big bucks that weddings are, what high quality means and how I think people are being cheated when they ask for services out of the common digital photographer.
Its not easy, but I try to play the part of sounding serious and knowledgeable, with a hint of friendliness.
Sometimes it can get quite amusing, like the time a girl with less than two braincells in her head, couldn't understand how I can photograph people and not be a paparazzi.
Hell, if I ever get invited to the Playboy mansion, I'll play the paparazzi, no probs.

In general though I try to avoid the "A" word unless I am talking to a fellow artist or trying to impress a girl.