Filters

derelict · Oct 21, 2016

I normally shoot B&W with an orange filter on. Last time, I forgot to throw the correct one in my bag. It obviously did not stop me from shooting the roll but I wish that I had it. My normal process is to shoot, develop, scan, and post/ send/ whatever. LR has an orange filter effect setting that I used for that particular roll. My question is this: has anyone shot a frame with a filter and then shot the same frame without a filter and applied it afterwards? Was there a difference between the filter and the applied filter look?

flavio81 · Oct 21, 2016

What is "LR"?

And what is "apply the filter afterwards"? Are you talking about the digital domain? You can't "apply" digitally an "orange filter effect" if the source film is black and white!!

derelict · Oct 21, 2016

Sorry, LR is Lightroom and there is a filter effect tool, including orange. It does, generally, mimic the orange filter effect on the film by changing skin tones, etc... but I started to wonder if it was truly a replacement or not.

etn · Oct 21, 2016

I tried to apply B&W filtering in post processing on a perfectly exposed d*g*t*l RAW file. The result never approached what I have seen with a B&W film with a real filter. (it might be related to my skill level with digital post processing which is virtually zero)

Can you try to increase contrast in some areas of your pictures by masking, increasing paper grade etc (assuming you print) or by playing with curves if you scan and process?

As mentioned above, if the medium is B&W film, no further color filtering can be applied. (color is gone at this point)

Hope this helps!

flavio81 · Oct 21, 2016

derelict said:
Sorry, LR is Lightroom and there is a filter effect tool, including orange. It does, generally, mimic the orange filter effect on the film by changing skin tones, etc... but I started to wonder if it was truly a replacement or not.

Your answer would be best served by asking in the "DPUG" forum, they are into digital image manipulation. In fact i think discussing such topics is almost forbidden here.

But if you want an answer, i don't know if you are comparing the effect applied on the scan of a color film, or the effect applied on a digital image created by a digital camera.

If the image was created by a digital camera, i think you already know that in such a camera the amount of red pixels is about 1/4th of the amount of total pixels. This means that applying a strong or red filter will dramatically reduce resolution and also increase noise (because noise on the red channel is usually higher). So it's not really a perfect solution.

As for the result, it may not necessarily be the same, because B&W film has a peculiar color response different to color film; in fact different B/W films can have different spectral response (i.e. FP4 versus Fomapan 100), and thus even without a filter, the result will be different to what it is achieved digitally.

And again, remember that you can't digitally apply an "orange filter effect" on a B/W digital image, because there is no color information there.

derelict · Oct 21, 2016

etn said:
I tried to apply B&W filtering in post processing on a perfectly exposed d*g*t*l RAW file. The result never approached what I have seen with a B&W film with a real filter. (it might be related to my skill level with digital post processing which is virtually zero)

That is what I was looking for. I think I might run an experiment with this. I just loaded some TMax into my MX. I will set a scene and shoot it twice to see if there really is a way to add the orange filter through post processing that mimics the real deal

Sirius Glass · Oct 21, 2016

I use a filter when it is needed and leave the digital work for urologists and proctologists.

Leigh B · Oct 21, 2016

etn said:
As mentioned above, if the medium is B&W film, no further color filtering can be applied. (color is gone at this point)

Color filters are quite commonly used with black&white film.

They change the densities of various colors in relation to other densities/colors.

Color filters for b&w film have exposure correction factors that change the exposure for all parts of the visible spectrum.

You only use colored filters with color film if you want some really weird effects.

- Leigh

MattKing · Oct 21, 2016

etn said:
As mentioned above, if the medium is B&W film, no further color filtering can be applied. (color is gone at this point)

Leigh B said:
Color filters are quite commonly used with black&white film.

I think etn was referring to the situation where your image is already in the form of a black and white negative.

While this subject (using digital "filters") is clearly off topic for APUG, it doesn't hurt for people to understand that the digital tools available are at best approximations and at worst entirely unrelated to the effects one can achieve by optically filtering light before the film is exposed. The use of the same word ("filter") for both processes is unfortunately confusing.

flavio81 · Oct 21, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
I use a filter when it is needed and leave the digital work for urologists and proctologists.

and stenographers and typists...

flavio81 · Oct 21, 2016

To be honest, the main reason that got me back into using analog film was my dissapointment with digital black and white. In the film domain is much better.

Sirius Glass · Oct 21, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
I use a filter when it is needed and leave the digital work for urologists and proctologists.

flavio81 said:
and stenographers and typists...

But they do not get their fingers dirty by probing around.

Bill Burk · Oct 21, 2016

derelict said:
That is what I was looking for. I think I might run an experiment with this. I just loaded some TMax into my MX. I will set a scene and shoot it twice to see if there really is a way to add the orange filter through post processing that mimics the real deal

If software has gotten to the point where it can detect the original color of a subject in black and white imagery... then surely we can't talk about it on APUG.

But the simple answer is, if you want an orange filter effect on black and white film, you should use an orange filter over the lens when you take the picture.

Leigh B · Oct 21, 2016

Bill Burk said:
If you want an orange filter effect on black and white film,
you should use an orange filter over the lens when you take the picture.

Yep ^^^ What he said.

This isn't DPUG.

- Leigh

LAG · Oct 21, 2016

MattKing said:
...While this subject (using digital "filters") is clearly off topic for APUG, it doesn't hurt for people to understand that the digital tools available are at best approximations and at worst entirely unrelated to the effects one can achieve by optically filtering light before the film is exposed. The use of the same word ("filter") for both processes is unfortunately confusing.

Nicely stated

etn · Oct 22, 2016

MattKing said:
I think etn was referring to the situation where your image is already in the form of a black and white negative

I was. Thanks for clarifying.

MattKing said:
While this subject (using digital "filters") is clearly off topic for APUG, it doesn't hurt for people to understand that the digital tools available are at best approximations and at worst entirely unrelated to the effects one can achieve by optically filtering light before the film is exposed. The use of the same word ("filter") for both processes is unfortunately confusing.

Very well said. My experience also.

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