Filtering Water

Hi Ari
From the two scans you attached, my guess at the problem would be drying marks on the emulsion in the first (although a bigger scan would make it easier to see), and some very fine fibres in the second (they are clearly not drying marks if you can just rub them off the surface of the film). The fibres are probably airborne - don't suppose you own a mohair blanket?
Ian

Bacteria, eh?
Actual living organisms screwing with my film.
Who would have thought?
Mike of course.
If I manage to treat the problem and save older negatives, I will construct a statue of my benefactor right outside my darkroom.
I owe you big time Mike. You might just have saved me from suicide. Of course, I don't think the rest of the world will thank you for it.

Fooking creatures.

iandavid said:

Hi Ari
From the two scans you attached, my guess at the problem would be drying marks on the emulsion in the first (although a bigger scan would make it easier to see), and some very fine fibres in the second (they are clearly not drying marks if you can just rub them off the surface of the film). The fibres are probably airborne - don't suppose you own a mohair blanket?
Ian

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Well, I do have a cat and lots of fur on my person and maybe some of my clothing are hairy too, so it could be anything, but my blanket which at present is quite hairless.

Both water and air must be clean. Any room air filter is sufficient after you clean the room everywhere, ceiling, floor walls boxes shelves, EVERYWHERE where dust hides.

Water can be made sufficiently clean with cotton wool in a filter funnel. A three micron water filter is better.

Glass container bottles are more cleanable than plastic. Wash even if you replace with the same chemical.

Do not reuse fix for film more than 24/48 hours after first use because a small amount of silver precipitates out and sticks to the next film. You can see it in the bottom of the bottle. I have yet to find perfect home method of filtering it out. The cotton trick will do 90%, but you will still be left with small crud which is a problem on small negs that are enlarged to 8x or more.

After you do all this, you may hide your spotting brushes. Mine are lost I think. Don`t be slow like me and take 40 years to learn this.

Cotton wool strands are another good example of the sort of very fine fibres that could look like your second scan. Mike's bacteria theory may be right, but I suspect the answer is probably simpler than that.

I wouldn't shave off your chest rug though Ari - it is unlikely to be the culprit

Ian

One last thought - one of the best places to collect inexplicably large quantities of dust on negs is the glass of a flat-bed scanner. Are you having problems with the negs before you scan them?

Ian

iandavid said:

One last thought - one of the best places to collect inexplicably large quantities of dust on negs is the glass of a flat-bed scanner.
Ian

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How true. When you think about it, it is a highly charged environment/device. I found I have to clear dust between scans. The minute you lift the cover, it seems to suck what dust might be around right onto the surfaces, even dust in another room.

A product called PEC-12 is safe for cleaning negatives (emulsion side included) including fungus. Best to test it on a negative that is not important.

Ari,
The second scan looks like hairs to me. One way to reduce dust, hairs and similar artifacts is to filter the air in your darkroom. Install a small fan in the wall with an air filter blowing air in to your darkroom. This will give the space positive air pressure. and help to eliminate dust etc. entering the room when you open the door. I have had similar problems in the past. Wipe all surfaces with a damp cloth and wait for any dust to settle before processing.

There's nothing "simpler" than bacteria... been around for millions of years longer than us. Those "hairs" are too FINE to be "hairs", IMO. And they can make us very sick. PLEASE check your drinking water, Ari.

Ari, You certainly have a condundrum. And I FEEL in your scans there be more than one problem. Drying marks, or bacteri strings, or just cat underhair.
Nothing is more difficult to troubleshoot than multiple problems on the same neg.
Since everyone has thrown in their suggestions, he are mine: gentle use of a squeegee flooded with wetting agent; then a soak in denatured alchohol 9:1 with distilled water before hanging up. It will dry the negs quickly and might exterminate Mike's bacteria as well. Vodka works. On the film, not in you! Do not use Ouzo on the film--it will make things cloudy......(VBG)

Another thing, Ari...

If you're going to listen to advice about killing the bacteria, do not use chlorine-based solutions on your Jobo stuff.

Jobo strongly advises AGAINST use of chlorine-based solutions for cleaning their processors and equipment (it will make the plastic brittle and increase the risk of breakage).

You could ask at the local pharmacy - explain the problem, and say that you need a bactericide (or something to prevent algae growth - also good for Jobo processors) that's not chlorine-based.

I went back and looked... you did say you're using using plastic tanks/reels... I missed that. Denis is right, Ari, you need to be sure they can handle any chemicals you expose them to.

I visited my local pharmacy and got myself a bottle of Dettol Sept which disinfects everything from floors and baskets to children toys and even the human body itself. Its main ingredient is chloroxylenol. Here is the MSDS sheet: http://newsearchch.chemexper.com/cheminfo/servlet/org.dbcreator.MainServlet?action=PowerSearch&query=msds._msdsID%3D7886&sort=&target=msds&from=0&realQuery=rn.value%3D%3D%2288-04-0%22&searchTemplate=rn.value%3D%3D%3F&searchValue=88-04-0&history=off&options=brandqtyoffer&format=ccd

After disinfecting/cleaning everything I strongly suggest you perform a test... use commercially filtered water through the whole process (including washing) as a test before you treat the source water. Don't use any of your source water at any time for the test. If that resolves the problem then try treating/cleaning/flushing the source water. Conversely, if the issue persists using disinfected/cleaned equipment and commercially filtered water then I'm out of ideas.

There are two filters that the main line goes through and brings water to two apartments and my darkroom. Another one goes straight to my darkroom.
The two main ones have a carbon and a sediment filter such as these:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
The third "darkroom" filter is a sediment filter more or less like this one;
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

All three needed change a long time ago as they had gathered mold equivalent to a botanical garden.
I thoroughly cleaned the plexiglas housings with hydrochloric acid then caustic soda and a few sprays by the disinfectant I mentioned before. With a lot of scrubbing, the "darkroom" filter became like new, but the other two, even though shed most of the mold and dirt, left a thin moldy film on the plexiglas than no scrubbing or acid would remove. I do not think they would be a problem.
I also plugged the housings bare and let the water run for a few minutes to clean them well of all the chemicals, before I installed them again with filters this time and let the water run again for a bit.
I also experimented with filling 4lt jugs with water that came out of my Brita filter.

The tanks, reels, axles and the Jobo funnel has been thoroughly cleaned with the disinfectant, distilled water and warm air, along other tools such as stirrers and measuring jugs.

I noticed though that the hair that I find on my negatives look very much like the ones that make up the water filter I changed. If some where stuck inside the reels or somewhere in the Jobo unit and they were invisible and invincible, I wouldn't know where to begin with.

I am also going to have to clean all negatives affected, which is quite a task, especially since they are all cut to 3 frame pieces.

I am still looking for a metallic mesh sediment water filter to replace the "hairy" one and keep my mind more at ease.
As I don't know of a store that carries them around here, I am looking at the web.

*sigh* I should have gone digital long time ago...

If you use a reverse osmosis system from a pet supplier as used for water preperation in aquariums....You cannot get ANYTHING but pure water.

Cheers Dave

I would like to let you know (those who might have experienced similar trouble) that I have successfully managed to clean a few negatives and I am in the process of cleaning more. I let the negatives loose to stay a bit in a tray of distilled water and Photo-flo (six-seven squirts of the bottle for 1lt), then I pass them through my examination gloved solution-drenched fingers and hang them to dry inside my DIY cabinet which I heat periodically.

Dave, your suggestion is appreciated but I don't think it would be very practical or economic unless one has really muddy water. I think cleaning the filters, the film equipment and paying more attention to the drying would be my solution.

The follow up is not that positive I am afraid.
I still have lots of trouble with my water.
No matter what I do, in-line filters, coffee filters, distilled water, cleaning and taking care of anything I can think of, I still find, on my last water+photo flo little fiber-like hairs and my negatives are always full of them. Cleaning them has proven to be difficult and have damaged a couple of negatives in the process no matter how careful I try to be.

I have stopped taking photos until I figure out what I am going to do.

Just a thought.... Can you take your negative to someone with an optical microscope and possibly view it under magnifications, let's say start with x100 and go up to x1000? It just may help you identify the source. To me, it look like drying marks but I'm not an expert. I do have a microscope though. If you'd like me to try viewing your negatives, I'll be glad to give it a try.

If you use distilled water you should have no impurities, distilled water is as clean as you can get. I use to have problems too with negatives getting full of stuff you don't want to get in the first place. My solution was simple, went to a hardware store, bought a long thick PVC tube (the ones they use for drainage and toilet connections) bought 2 end-caps you can take off and a few metal pieces to make the feet. I drilled a few small holes in the bottom and the top to vent the evaporating water and with a copper wire I made a system so I can hang my negatives. Since then I have virtually no contamination any more and it's cheap to make.

Take a sweater and pull out some of the little fibers. That's exactly what they are like.

And its not a drying problem. They appear before the drying, as I have mentioned. Plus, I have a DIY drying cabinet.

arigram said:

Take a sweater and pull out some of the little fibers. That's exactly what they are like.

And its not a drying problem. They appear before the drying, as I have mentioned. Plus, I have a DIY drying cabinet.

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One more thought--Did you use fresh photo-flo? Could be things growing in your bottle. Looks like everything else has been done.

Rick

And did you REPLACE the filters (not just clean them) and ensure there is a perfect SEAL in the filter holders - no water by-passing the filters? Final wash in DISTILLED water followed by a final rinse in PhotoFlo (fresh, as Rick said) mixed in DISTILLED water? If so I'm completely stumped.

Perhaps you should ask someone who knows what they're lokking at through a microscope to help identify the stuff... as another poster already suggested.

ralnphot said:

One more thought--Did you use fresh photo-flo? Could be things growing in your bottle. Looks like everything else has been done.

Rick

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I don't think its any chemicals or such contamination. These are actual fibers, visible with the eye and movable by touch. I fill a plastic jug with store bought distilled water and five-six squeezes of the photo-flo bottle. I mix either with my gloved finger or with a plastic mixer. I take the roll, dip it inside and holding it by the two edges, I slowly move it from edge to edge, three-four times. I hang it immediately. I used to swiped it gently with my finger to get much of the water out but that created scratches some times. The water inside the jug will be filled with these little fibers which come in different colors, such as red and blue.
I thought that they somehow might be getting them from my clothing but couldn't trace the problem there.