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One curiosity, if I may indulge....For Sandy King, was knowledge of BTZS an influential factor in formulating Pyrocat -HD ? Was there something in your BTZS testing that pushed for such a developer ? My favorite combo is 400Tmax/pyrocat-mc 1:1:100 in BTZS tubes (ei@G=0.52 EFS=348 es=1.15). It took exactly 40mins to do the test. My negatives exposures in a word superb! Alas, I wish that developing visual and compositional skills was as easy.....
I wonder what old AA would say to all this discussion about the ZS. When asked by John Sexton what he thought his epitaph should read, AA responded that it might be similar to what Alfred Eisenstadt wanted his to read which was:
"Here lies Alfred Eisenstadt, he lived for better or for worse but he's dead for good."
I think AA would say of the ZS: the zone system, it exists for better or for worse, but it is alive and well.
I'm smiling as I write this and I say that I think the overall discussion that we are having is a healthy one for what we do. Albeit, the form of communication, however, presents it own set of difficult circumstances to overcome.
Chuck
Yes, BTZS controls were a major factor in my formulation of the Pyrocat-HD formula. Every permutation of the formula I made was thorougly examined with BTZS testing. This included extensive comparison testing, using a light integration system of exposure, and carefully controlled development procedures, of Pyrocat-HD against a number of *control* developers.
Later, I modified the Pyrocat formula to include Pyrocat-MC and Pyrocat-P with the intention of improving acutance with rotary processing. BTZS testing procedures were used in these tests.
Sandy King
Food for thought:
Andreas Feininger in his book on Darkroom which covers developing negatives states that with a properly exposed negative you should be be able to read newsprint though the denses part of the neagative, and see details when looking though the thinnest part of the negative. I just check a few of my 4X5 and 6X9negatives and he is right. Any thoughts?
Yesterday I tested a roll of Forma 120 Action 400, shot 8 exposure in 1/2 stops from 1600 to 100 developed in Ansco equilivant of D 76 at recommended time for D 76, then looked for the speed that allowed my to read newsprint though highlights and see details in the shadow. I judged 320 to be best, printed on grade 2 paper at my rated time for my negatives that I tested in the past, almost a perfert match. I plan to do a real world test follow up this weekend to see if I get as good as match at 320.
When I am cutting a piece of steel on my lathe I use a rough cutting tool and a pair of calipers to measure with. I then use a fine cutting tool and a micrometer to get the work spot on. Using my experience I am sometimes within tolerance using the roughing tool/calipers to measure with. As I get closer to my goal I work to a finer tolerance.
How much tolerance and precision we need in our work is an important issue.
APUG is not a homogeneous community, even though we are united by an interest in traditional photographic printing methods.. On the one extreme we have folks who use exclusively 35mm and shoot only a few rolls of film per year, and have little or no financial interest in the process. At the other extreme are LF and ULF photographers who expose hundreds of negatives per year, many of whom derive income from their photographic activities. In between there are MF users.
My own belief is that if you are a LF or ULF photographer working with sheet film one should do whatever is possible to expose and develop the individual sheets so as to make printing as easy as possible. In the long run you will save a lot of time and aggravation by learning what you need to know to make negatives that print well. And since you are working with individual sheets of film it is a simple matter to expose and develop for each scene.
On the other hand, if you are a 35mm photographer any given roll of film typically will have negatives covering a fairly wide range of subject lighting conditions, and if that is the case optimizing development for the entire roll is impossible. My own solution to this situation is to use C-41 color negative film, expose for shadow detail, and just have the film processed at local lab. To make a B&W print you will have to either have the negatives put on CD or scan them yourself, but since highlight density of color negative film shoulders considerably a good scanner should be able to capture it, even if the subject has very high contrast lighting. To print you will have to adjust the curves with image manipulation software.. If this procedure interests you go over the hybrid forum and start a thread. I will say, however, that I have exposed medium format color negative film in SBR conditions of 10 or higher and was able to make prints with a full range of tones from the deepest shadows to the highlights. On the whole I find that this procedures is much more productive than shooting B&W film in the camera.
Sandy King
Roger,
My only generalization was that there are a lot of different interests here on APUG.
The only other thing I have claimed is that for my own reasons I have switched to color negative film for all of my work with medium format. I did not claim it was better, only that I find it more productive when having to deal with a wide range of lighting conditions on one roll of film.
I did not make any claims of any type regarding the best way to make a print so please don't put words in my mouth or suggest that I am saying anything other than what I specifally noted, i.e. that for my own work I find it more productive to use exclusively color negative film in medium format.
You are free to agree or disagree with position, but it is my right to make personal decisions about my own work.
Sandy
Dear Sandy,
And my comments about your ranking of 35mm, MF and LF, and dismissal of your remarks about selling pictures, stand.
Cheers,
R.
That is not correct. I did not rank anything. All I did was suggest that there are a wide range of users on APUG, and that the type of recommendations for exposure and development we make for one group would not necessarily apply to another. I specifically never get into discucssions regarding print quality from different formats.
Also, since you know nothing about the quality of my work in medium format the suggest that I am sloppy in using it is something of a leap, is it not?
Sandy
I make wide us of image control software and digital negatives in my own printing, which is a 19th century process for which I have to make all of my own materials.
Please re-read both your posts and mine. You said that there are those who shoot a few rolls of 35mm per year, and those who shoot a lot of LF/ULF, with MF in between. I proposed an alternative ranking -- and I would maintain that on any ordinary reading of the English language, both your statement and mine are rankings.
R.
I do not doubt for an instant that your negatives are superbly exposed and processed, but I do have to ask why you feel the need for the digital intermediary. No doubt you will either explain this with a clarity that will leave me feeling ashamed for having asked, or indicate that this is yet another area you do not wish to discuss.
Roger
And I thought this thread was about done....
It looked like it was going that way. Then I finished reading BTZS today, and an earlier assumption of mine did not pay out. That is, How is the camera, lens and meter taken into account with testing? The Zone System addresses this directly. It looks to me that BTZS is great for paper and film matching, but it doesn't take the hardware into account, other than "testing your materials in the field and fine-tune". An earlier post stated that the ZS takes alot of time because you have to do alot of testing and fine tuning your exposures. How is this any different from what is being necessary for BTZS? Quite frankly, I'm disappointed. I guess I had an unrealistic expectation. Sure, it might give you great info on the behaviour of that film and this paper, but the equipment you're using may throw things off by as much as a stop or two. Then what's the point of having the film/developer/paper so finely tuned? I'm probably already within 2 stops of an ideal exposure! I wasn't trying to stir any pots earlier, but now I'm playing devil's advocate. I have a pretty darn good understanding of BTZS after studying that book for 3 days. You practitioners are really going to have to sell it now! (Well, maybe it's not worth your trouble- we'll see)
This has turned surreal. I dont know why you bother to respond Sandy.
That is, How is the camera, lens and meter taken into account with testing? The Zone System addresses this directly. It looks to me that BTZS is great for paper and film matching, but it doesn't take the hardware into account, other than "testing your materials in the field and fine-tune".
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