Film storage question

jaehoppa · Jun 4, 2017

I keep my color neg films in the freezer. Loose rolls with plastic wrapper inside ziplock bags and 5-roll packs as is. However last night, the freezer had been cracked open a little all night and frost formed on the outside the boxes. Some of them melted a little and made the boxes a little soggy. For now I have put them in ziploc bags with a bunch of silica gel. Would the rolls inside the boxes be ok? Should I thaw them completely before re-freezing them?

Thanks.

BrianShaw · Jun 4, 2017

Film, unlike meat or ice cream, has no moisture to form ice crystals. Scrape the frost off of the boxes and put the film back in the freezer. Only the box is being affected. The film is sealed.

Sirius Glass · Jun 4, 2017

+1 What Brian said is correct.

jaehoppa · Jun 5, 2017

BrianShaw said:
Film, unlike meat or ice cream, has no moisture to form ice crystals. Scrape the frost off of the boxes and put the film back in the freezer. Only the box is being affected. The film is sealed.

thank you sir!

MattKing · Jun 5, 2017

Do we assume correctly that this is 120 film? I ask, because if this is 35mm film, the plastic canisters that the film cassettes come in aren't always impervious to moisture. If the film is 35mm, I would discard the now moisture soaked boxes and put the film and canisters into ziplock bags.

trendland · Jun 11, 2017

MattKing said:
Do we assume correctly that this is 120 film? I ask, because if this is 35mm film, the plastic canisters that the film cassettes come in aren't always impervious to moisture. If the film is 35mm, I would discard the now moisture soaked boxes and put the film and canisters into ziplock bags.

Well - Ian from my point of view 135 films should be freezed in original canisters.120 in the same way.
The question is on 4x5 I can't remember
because I still have no 4x5 / 5x7 camera.
Are the films inside the box in plastic like
photographic papers - of cause they are.
But is the plastic folder closed?

with regards

trendland · Jun 11, 2017

trendland said:
Well - Ian from my point of view 135 films should be freezed in original canisters.120 in the same way.
The question is on 4x5 I can't remember
because I still have no 4x5 / 5x7 camera.
Are the films inside the box in plastic like
photographic papers - of cause they are.
But is the plastic folder closed?

with regards

Oh sorry Matt I noticed this reply as it comes from Ian Grand.
Wonder - perhaps I need new glasses.
Just remember Ian posted yesterday at last - when I was offline.
What ever sorry sorry sorry.
But this could be a problem to moisture
and more and more dew points from frezers.
But they should be stored inside in airtight plastic ? (Sheed films)

with regards Matt

trendland · Jun 11, 2017

Ähm in addition 135 plastic canisters should be indeed airthight Matt.
NOT easy to imagine but in freeze condition you have a negative pressure
airtight. Over pressure works not so good. Can't find the correct term :
"Tropic Proof "?
So let us hope they are a bit from all.

with regards

Minoltafan2904 · Jul 16, 2017

If it's going to be stored less than 6 months : Fridge
More than 6 months : Freezer
Agree on putting the boxes in ziploc bags.

Chris Livsey · Jul 16, 2017

Your 5 roll packs should be in ziplock type bags, Ilford advise:-

Paper and film may either be refrigerated or frozen but should first be sealed in plastic bags for protection. Products should be allowed to return to room temperature before opening otherwise condensation will cause damage. Avoid repeated thawing and freezing of films.

BrianShaw said:
Film, unlike meat or ice cream, has no moisture to form ice crystals. Scrape the frost off of the boxes and put the film back in the freezer. Only the box is being affected. The film is sealed.

That I'm afraid is not correct, film varies in moisture content but it is around 3% and the behaviour of the relative humidity equilibrium is regrettably rather complex, as it affects the accelerated storage tests performed on film it has been extensively studied. Whilst ice crystal formation is not an issue the Relative Humidity (RH) and its equilibrium is
The small scale storage advice is not surprisingly in line with that of Ilford but it is important that the humidity is in equilibrium before storage as otherwise the glass transition temperature (Tg) of the gelatin may be exceeded and the emulsion layer be physically damaged, this really only kicks in when the normal room exceeds 60% RH.
MOISTURE RELATIONSHIPS OF PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM
JAIC 1997, Volume 36, Number 3, Article 2 (pp. 193 to 206)

Without robust data on the sealing and porosity of the various plastic canisters in use to store film (35mm) an outer sealed plastic bag would be a wise precaution as Ilford advise.

trendland · Jul 17, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Your 5 roll packs should be in ziplock type bags, Ilford advise:-

Paper and film may either be refrigerated or frozen but should first be sealed in plastic bags for protection. Products should be allowed to return to room temperature before opening otherwise condensation will cause damage. Avoid repeated thawing and freezing of films.

That I'm afraid is not correct, film varies in moisture content but it is around 3% and the behaviour of the relative humidity equilibrium is regrettably rather complex, as it affects the accelerated storage tests performed on film it has been extensively studied. Whilst ice crystal formation is not an issue the Relative Humidity (RH) and its equilibrium is
The small scale storage advice is not surprisingly in line with that of Ilford but it is important that the humidity is in equilibrium before storage as otherwise the glass transition temperature (Tg) of the gelatin may be exceeded and the emulsion layer be physically damaged, this really only kicks in when the normal room exceeds 60% RH.
MOISTURE RELATIONSHIPS OF PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM
JAIC 1997, Volume 36, Number 3, Article 2 (pp. 193 to 206)

Without robust data on the sealing and porosity of the various plastic canisters in use to store film (35mm) an outer sealed plastic bag would be a wise precaution as Ilford advise.

If I understand correct your advice is to freeze films (ever) in original UNOPENED
canisters.
Never the less one can use plastic backs.
But the last mentioned is more to protect
the nice (paper/carton) package of some films ?

with regards

Chris Livsey · Jul 17, 2017

trendland said:
If I understand correct your advice is to freeze films (ever) in original UNOPENED
canisters.
Never the less one can use plastic backs.
But the last mentioned is more to protect
the nice (paper/carton) package of some films ?

with regards

The principle is not to preserve the nice packaging by sealing but to preserve the nice film

The main issue is the relative humidity that can affect the emulsion, to stabilise that the package must be sealed, (and at a "reasonable" room RH when sealed) Ziplock is suitable, so the film is not exposed to the environment within the storage . The film canisters are probably/may be sufficient but as there are so many types and porosity is not quoted it is easier and safer to seal them.
The OP very well described the RH effect on the packaging, the goal is to prevent the film suffering the same fate.
If you read the article quoted, which I admit is heavy going, you will note that the times to equilibrium of the moisture content (RH) vary with temperature so any problems may take months to become apparent, and BTW it's not my advice it's the advice of much more experienced and clever photographic emulsion engineers than I at both Ilford and Kodak (although Kodak make it difficult to access much of their useful technical data these days, using Kodak as a generic term as I suspect the various parts are not working as closely together as they should and responsibility seems uncertain for much archive material as they are split into many separate corporate parts)

trendland · Jul 17, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
The principle is not to preserve the nice packaging by sealing but to preserve the nice film

The main issue is the relative humidity that can affect the emulsion, to stabilise that the package must be sealed, (and at a "reasonable" room RH when sealed) Ziplock is suitable, so the film is not exposed to the environment within the storage . The film canisters are probably/may be sufficient but as there are so many types and porosity is not quoted it is easier and safer to seal them.
The OP very well described the RH effect on the packaging, the goal is to prevent the film suffering the same fate.
If you read the article quoted, which I admit is heavy going, you will note that the times to equilibrium of the moisture content (RH) vary with temperature so any problems may take months to become apparent, and BTW it's not my advice it's the advice of much more experienced and clever photographic emulsion engineers than I at both Ilford and Kodak (although Kodak make it difficult to access much of their useful technical data these days, using Kodak as a generic term as I suspect the various parts are not working as closely together as they should and responsibility seems uncertain for much archive material as they are split into many separate corporate parts)

Oh thanks - I did not expect such kind
of "easy english" especially for me...
But never mind Chris - if I can finish the
translation of your reply within one week
my next step should be to complete some forms and start examination to
"cambridge certificate" and finishing it this summer...
Air humity should be the key off all issues
with freezing film.
From the point of the freezer and from the region you freeze films.

In southern california your problems are less. But beware to fill your plastic backs
with films inside tropical rainforests...

with regards

Minoltafan2904 · Jul 18, 2017

I have to store my film in the fridge, as daytime temps during summer in my house can get up to 30c, and i don't remember where but i read Kodak recomends that film should be kept at 14c or cooler.

trendland · Jul 18, 2017

Minoltafan2904 said:
I have to store my film in the fridge, as daytime temps during summer in my house can get up to 30c, and i don't remember where but i read Kodak recomends that film should be kept at 14c or cooler.

Storage of film within expired dates to temperature less 14 degree celsius is not
so bad (as an Idea).
Proffessional films needs less than 8 degree C - hope I remember it correct.

But never mind - it is not the fact to have
some degree more or less - it is just in regard of expired dates.
Storage of your films at 15,7 degree C is also OK if you shoot your films 14 month
before your films expired date.
But beware of storage at 56 degree C at summer just to some hours!

with regards

MattKing · Jul 18, 2017

Here is Kodak's current film storage recommendations - fresh from the Kodak Alaris website: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/cis_e30.pdf

Sirius Glass · Jul 18, 2017

Thanks Matt

Film storage question

jaehoppa

BrianShaw

Sirius Glass

jaehoppa

MattKing

Moderator

trendland

trendland

trendland

Minoltafan2904

Chris Livsey

trendland

Chris Livsey

trendland

Minoltafan2904

trendland

MattKing

Moderator

Sirius Glass

Film storage question

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency