Film scratch resistance

Gabriel Aszalos · Mar 24, 2020

I am one of those newer hybrid hipster type of film shooters (for now) who scans their film. I'm wondering - how much care is really necessary with the film when handling it, after it was developed and dried? Does it really scratch that easily? By seeing all the random small scratches that occur even when handling the film with great care I tend to believe yes - but I'm also wondering: is it only the emulsion side that scratches easily? Is the other side a lot more resistant? Like, if I were to put the film on the floor with the shiny side (what's that called?) would it scratch?

I'd be curious to hear from the people on this forum with so much experience behind them

AgX · Mar 24, 2020

You could take a piece of virgin film, fix and dry it and put it in your enlager (or your scanner...) after having it treated that way it got scratches on one of the sides. That would show you how large/deep scratches must be to be of optical effect and how much effort is needed to bring them into existance in first place.
Of course with deeper scratches on emulsion side it also needs a homogeneous grey to also show when the silver image itself is affected.

Typically films have a thin overcoat of plain gelatin to protect the actual emulsion.

138S · Mar 24, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
I am one of those newer hybrid hipster type of film shooters (for now) who scans their film. I'm wondering - how much care is really necessary with the film when handling it, after it was developed and dried? Does it really scratch that easily? By seeing all the random small scratches that occur even when handling the film with great care I tend to believe yes - but I'm also wondering: is it only the emulsion side that scratches easily? Is the other side a lot more resistant? Like, if I were to put the film on the floor with the shiny side (what's that called?) would it scratch?

I'd be curious to hear from the people on this forum with so much experience behind them

kodak, ilford and fuji emulsions are very hard, foma is well easier to scratch when wet, and shanghai has to be handled with extreme care.

after washing, just use a final bath with distilled water and a very low dose of wetting agent, that bath can be reused a number of times, in that way you prevent drying marks, you require a less agressive wiping, and no solid particles are on film when wiping it, as tap water often carries some particles.

To save distilled watter I use a two distilled water baths procedure, after some 20 rolls I discard the first distilled bath and I use the second bath as first bath, then I use fresh distilled water for the second bath.

Get a cheap HEPA class air purifier for the room in what you dry, handle of scan film, I use a Honeywell hap-16200E unit, but it can be cheaper.

With all that: never an scratch, never a dust particle.

Gabriel Aszalos · Mar 24, 2020

What I actually meant to ask is - how much care does one need to have when handling it? How sensitive is it really? If I were to take a roll and place it shiny side down on a surface - does that risk scratching? I’d imagine it cannot be THAT sensitive. Maybe there is just one way to find out

AgX · Mar 24, 2020

Yes, the best way to learn how much things can bear is to spoil them...

With enlargers there are different types of lighting they got, ranging from point-light over inbetween to diffused-light. And this too is of influence to when scratches show up. That is why I made the remark of putting the test strips in your enlarger.

Mr Bill · Mar 24, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
Like, if I were to put the film on the floor with the shiny side (what's that called?) would it scratch?

Well no, simply laying it on the floor won't scratch it. But... it would probably pick up some tiny particles of dirt that don't come off easily. Then if you try to wipe it clean these tiny particles could put tiny gouges/scratches in the film. Same thing if you slide it into a sleeve for storage. You might think it would be easy to blow off the dirt. Larger particles, yes. But very tiny particles can be strongly attracted so they can't be removed like that.

I'd say that slight scratching tends to be worse on the back side - even though there's almost no physical damage there IS an optical effect that makes it show up, often as a darker line (visually on the film). If the scratching is severe it would be more likely to be on the emulsion, which can be scratched away. This would result in heavy black lines on the print.

BAC1967 · Mar 24, 2020

It’s good that you worry about scratching it, you’ll probably handle it with care. There’s lots of ways it can get scratched starting with being pulled through the gate of your camera. As long as you take reasonable precautions you should be alright.

Wallendo · Mar 24, 2020

My experience is that scratching is more likely to occur prior to processing, at least when developing at home. Film placed on a floor, especially if still wet, is most likely going to pick up lint and dirt. Unless the film is dragged, scratches are not likely. But I still wouldn't intentionally place film on a floor.

138S · Mar 24, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
What I actually meant to ask is - how much care does one need to have when handling it? How sensitive is it really?

Just take a bad frame (focus miss, etc) and punish it, dry and wet, you will find first hand how sensitive it is, no explanation will be better than this easy DIY test.

Adrian Bacon · Mar 26, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
I am one of those newer hybrid hipster type of film shooters (for now) who scans their film. I'm wondering - how much care is really necessary with the film when handling it, after it was developed and dried? Does it really scratch that easily? By seeing all the random small scratches that occur even when handling the film with great care I tend to believe yes - but I'm also wondering: is it only the emulsion side that scratches easily? Is the other side a lot more resistant? Like, if I were to put the film on the floor with the shiny side (what's that called?) would it scratch?

I'd be curious to hear from the people on this forum with so much experience behind them

in my experience, it depends on the film. Kodak’s and Ilford’s current films tend to be fairly resistant when dry, Foma tends to be less so. In either case, treat it as if it’s scratchable. You don’t necessarily have to kids gloves it, but at the same time you do need to be able to handle it to make prints or scan it.

all that being said, I tend to avoid contact with the surfaces (either side) except for when absolutely necessary. It’s not going to get scratched if it didn’t come into contact with anything but air. A run through the scanner and then getting sleeved generally won’t do anything unless you’re particularly rough.

Agulliver · Mar 27, 2020

I've certainly scratched film before processing. Indeed this happened yesterday. I find if there are issues getting the film onto the processing reel then that is likely to cause scratches. In my instance yesterday, I shot what I had labelled as a 20 exposure bulk loaded cassette of HP5+ but after exposure 16 I wound on and the film was pulled right out of the cassette. That meant the whole camera went in my dark bag and loading the film "backwards" from the camera into the spiral. Wasn't easy as the camera provides some tension and it resulted in light scratches on some frames. Nothing that evil software can't handle but a bit of a pain.

After processing and fixing it's not very easy to scratch film but it certainly can be done. I would suggest that you use a clean and preferably soft surface when laying negatives down. I've dropped them on a less than clean carpet and picked up particles which then are a scratch danger when wiping the negs clean.

Something I have noticed at several mini labs that I've used for C41 processing, they are far more rough with film than I am...and it's always fine in the end.

foc · Mar 27, 2020

Film is fairly robust. It can take a fair amount of handling, pre and post processing.
Just think about it for a moment.(35mm)

The film was coated and wound onto a master roll then it was sliced and wound into the film cassette.
The film was pulled through the camera as each image was captured and then rewound back into the cassette.
To process the film, it is pulled out of the cassette and onto a spool (home dev) or through a processor (commercial dev).
To scan the film (commercial) the film is pulled through the scanner.
To sleeve the film it is pulled into the sleever and cut.

That's a lot of pulling and winding.

Agulliver said:
Something I have noticed at several mini labs that I've used for C41 processing, they are far more rough with film than I am...and it's always fine in the end

Once the film is handled with respect and by the edges, everything will be fine and remember the lab are handling film every day so while it may look rough or not as delicate, it is in fact normal.

mohmad khatab · Mar 27, 2020

138S said:
kodak, ilford and fuji emulsions are very hard, foma is well easier to scratch when wet, and shanghai has to be handled with extreme care.

after washing, just use a final bath with distilled water and a very low dose of wetting agent, that bath can be reused a number of times, in that way you prevent drying marks, you require a less agressive wiping, and no solid particles are on film when wiping it, as tap water often carries some particles.

To save distilled watter I use a two distilled water baths procedure, after some 20 rolls I discard the first distilled bath and I use the second bath as first bath, then I use fresh distilled water for the second bath.

Get a cheap HEPA class air purifier for the room in what you dry, handle of scan film, I use a Honeywell hap-16200E unit, but it can be cheaper.

With all that: never an scratch, never a dust particle.

Hi ,
I must thank you very much.
I benefited greatly from this wonderful information.
Really, this is what I needed to know,
God bless you .
Greetings.

Vaughn · Mar 27, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
What I actually meant to ask is - how much care does one need to have when handling it? How sensitive is it really? If I were to take a roll and place it shiny side down on a surface - does that risk scratching? I’d imagine it cannot be THAT sensitive. Maybe there is just one way to find out

It is pretty tough -- it is sliding the shiny surface across another surface with any kind of grit between (or just a rough surface) that you want to avoid. Just setting it down on a smooth surface will be cool.

Film is often slightly cupped towards the duller, emulsion side -- which can actually help keep the emulsion from getting scratched if randomly set down. The gelatin that makes up the emulsion will get harder as time passes (with or without hardeners, but quicker with hardeners). But again, just setting it down on a clean smooth surface is cool...no worries. I do it all the time with negatives from 120 and 4x5 to 11x14.

138S · Mar 28, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
I must thank you very much.

My pleasure, thanks

Film scratch resistance

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