Film reversal processing with sepia toner.

[isaac7]

It’s been a long time since I posted here, maybe going back to the APUG days… Anyway, I stumbled across this article

Making 4x5 Slides using a Sepia Toner Kit - By Andrew Smale

Recently, I was lucky enough to be invited to contribute to a project that was started by Dave Whenham (@elland_in) and John Martin (@TEMLIGHTIMAGES). The project is passing a homemade 4x5 pinhole camera around some invited contributors, who each use the camera and submit the results as content...

www.35mmc.com

It talks about doing film reversal processing with an off the shelf sepia toner and fericyanide bleach. His results remind me of the DR5 developer 2 that I loved so much. The process itself also seems very straightforward since the bleach step is much less fiddly and/or toxic compared to typical bleaches. I have several questions:

1) Can anyone give an overview of what’s happening chemically? Could redeveloping before bleaching be used with any other toners or developers?
2) How could you tweak this process to change things like contrast, color, etc.? I assume that all the regular stuff about the first developer still holds true for the most part. Or does it?
3) What do you think would be the impact of using some sort of poly toner like Moresch carbon toner instead of a sepia toner?

I loved what I got from DR5 years ago. I’m not quite in a position to start processing again right now but this process has my attention and curiosity. What do you think about it? Someone in the comments section said he used it in prints and I think there’s a thread here about that. I’m surprised that there hasn’t been any discussion here about using it for film.

 

[koraks]

1) Can anyone give an overview of what’s happening chemically? Could redeveloping before bleaching be used with any other toners or developers?

Referring to the process steps on the page you linked to:
1: During initial development, the exposed silver halide image is developed into a metallic silver image. Silver halides (AgBr, AgCl, AgI) are reduced to metallic silver through the developer, producing a regular negative image as you would get when developing a negative. Unexposed silver halides remain unaffected in this step.
3: In this step, the previously unaffected and unexposed silver halides are fogged by a sulfur-based toner, which allows sulfur to bind with the silver in the silver halides, producing silver sulfide (AgS). Silver sulfide is very stable and ranges in color from yellow to deep purple-brown, depending on particle size. The particle size can be influenced by the configuration of modern 'odorless' (thiourea-based) sepia toners such as used here. Because the silver halide involved in this step was the unexposed silver, we are now left with a positive image consisting of silver sulfide - in addition to the previously obtained negative image in metallic silver.
5: The original silver image that resulted from step 1 is now bleached, which means chemically speaking that the metallic silver is turned back into silver halide (silver bromide usually, AgBr) through the action of a ferricyanide-based 'rehalogenating' bleach. The positive silver sulfide image is very stable and in fact, silver sulfide cannot be rehalogenated with this kind of bleach, so it remains unaffected. As a result, at the end of this step we have a positive image in silver sulfide (unchanged) and the metallic silver negative image is now turned back into silver bromide.
7: The fixer removes the silver bromide that initially made up the negative image developed in step 1 and bleached in step 3. Since the fixer cannot act on silver sulfide (it's too stable), the positive silver sulfide image remains intact. We are now left with a piece of film that only has the silver sulfide positive image, as all other silver has been removed.

2) How could you tweak this process to change things like contrast, color, etc.? I assume that all the regular stuff about the first developer still holds true for the most part. Or does it?

You can vary exposure and development, but you can also add a silver solvent (e.g. a small amount of thiosulfate, i.e. fixer, or alternatively thiocyanate) to the first developer. Especially the latter is commonly done in B&W reversal chemistry. Getting it 'just right' involves a lot of trial & error and a good dose of analytical thinking/critical observation of the results.

3) What do you think would be the impact of using some sort of poly toner like Moresch carbon toner instead of a sepia toner?

Carbon toner won't work well here I expect since it's basically a mixture of selenium and sepia. If you're lucky, the sepia part will still do the same thing as a regular sepia toner and the selenium just stands by idly, going to waste. If you're not so lucky, you get oddly stained highlights etc. Experimentally inclined people would give it a try. But personally, if I wanted to use this kind of toner, I'd use a regular reversal process that yields a silver image (instead of silver sulfide) and then apply the toner to it as you would with a regular print. You could apply in principle all kinds of toners that will also work on regular photo paper. Once upon a time this was quite common in the movie industry, early in the 20th century.
The reversal process as explained in your link works so well very specifically because of the stability of the AgS that's formed, so it's kind of (very) specific to a regular sepia toner.

I loved what I got from DR5 years ago.

I'm pretty sure DR5 was a regular reversal process that yielded a silver image, not a sepia toned one. But AFAIK no official set of procedures or chemistry for DR5 has ever been published, leaving us to guess at what it was exactly.

I’m surprised that there hasn’t been any discussion here about using it for film.

It pops up from time to time, every few years. I think it's not very popular because (1) reversal processing of B&W film is a bit of a niche to begin with and (2) most people doing reversal processing go for the regular silver-based process instead of a sepia-toned one because they prefer a more neutral palette.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

it's not very popular because (1) reversal processing of B&W film is a bit of a niche to begin with and (2) most people doing reversal processing go for the regular silver-based process instead of a sepia-toned one because they prefer a more neutral palette.

It's not popular also because of substantial speed loss, low contrast and muddy highlights which make the process unappealing for films. It might work better with reversal of paper as noted here:

I think I invented a new way to do reversal processing using sepia toner...

I was playing about with some sepia toner for the first time and had a lightbulb moment. Not sure if this has been documented before but it's possible to use the sepia toner (in the reverse order - redeveloper before bleach) to do reversal processing: Expose paper Develop to completion Stop...

www.photrio.com

 

[isaac7]

Referring to the process steps on the page you linked to:
1: During initial development, the exposed silver halide image is developed into a metallic silver image. Silver halides (AgBr, AgCl, AgI) are reduced to metallic silver through the developer, producing a regular negative image as you would get when developing a negative. Unexposed silver halides remain unaffected in this step.
3: In this step, the previously unaffected and unexposed silver halides are fogged by a sulfur-based toner, which allows sulfur to bind with the silver in the silver halides, producing silver sulfide (AgS). Silver sulfide is very stable and ranges in color from yellow to deep purple-brown, depending on particle size. The particle size can be influenced by the configuration of modern 'odorless' (thiourea-based) sepia toners such as used here. Because the silver halide involved in this step was the unexposed silver, we are now left with a positive image consisting of silver sulfide - in addition to the previously obtained negative image in metallic silver.
5: The original silver image that resulted from step 1 is now bleached, which means chemically speaking that the metallic silver is turned back into silver halide (silver bromide usually, AgBr) through the action of a ferricyanide-based 'rehalogenating' bleach. The positive silver sulfide image is very stable and in fact, silver sulfide cannot be rehalogenated with this kind of bleach, so it remains unaffected. As a result, at the end of this step we have a positive image in silver sulfide (unchanged) and the metallic silver negative image is now turned back into silver bromide.
7: The fixer removes the silver bromide that initially made up the negative image developed in step 1 and bleached in step 3. Since the fixer cannot act on silver sulfide (it's too stable), the positive silver sulfide image remains intact. We are now left with a piece of film that only has the silver sulfide positive image, as all other silver has been removed.


You can vary exposure and development, but you can also add a silver solvent (e.g. a small amount of thiosulfate, i.e. fixer, or alternatively thiocyanate) to the first developer. Especially the latter is commonly done in B&W reversal chemistry. Getting it 'just right' involves a lot of trial & error and a good dose of analytical thinking/critical observation of the results.


Carbon toner won't work well here I expect since it's basically a mixture of selenium and sepia. If you're lucky, the sepia part will still do the same thing as a regular sepia toner and the selenium just stands by idly, going to waste. If you're not so lucky, you get oddly stained highlights etc. Experimentally inclined people would give it a try. But personally, if I wanted to use this kind of toner, I'd use a regular reversal process that yields a silver image (instead of silver sulfide) and then apply the toner to it as you would with a regular print. You could apply in principle all kinds of toners that will also work on regular photo paper. Once upon a time this was quite common in the movie industry, early in the 20th century.
The reversal process as explained in your link works so well very specifically because of the stability of the AgS that's formed, so it's kind of (very) specific to a regular sepia toner.


I'm pretty sure DR5 was a regular reversal process that yielded a silver image, not a sepia toned one. But AFAIK no official set of procedures or chemistry for DR5 has ever been published, leaving us to guess at what it was exactly.



It pops up from time to time, every few years. I think it's not very popular because (1) reversal processing of B&W film is a bit of a niche to begin with and (2) most people doing reversal processing go for the regular silver-based process instead of a sepia-toned one because they prefer a more neutral palette.

Appreciate the detailed response! DR5 offered 2 types of development, developer 1 and 2. Developer 2 gave very warm results ranging from a sedate sepia (Tri-x professional), to a coppery brown (Pan F+ and ORT 25). I loved what it gave me. 4x5 transparencies are just lovely objects. If I decide to print I go the digital route.

I say I was surprised because this forum has the most discussion about B&W reversal processing and DR5 that I have found. Looking back it does seem like the most recent big thread was a year ago.

I understand that silver sulphide is very stable. That is great from an archival perspective. I guess it makes it difficult (impossible?) to alter the results after the fact with other toners. Was wondering if subsequent toning in selenium or gold would alter the dmax. I’m guessing not. One of the things that people loved about DR5 was the incredible dmax and general dynamic range that was possible with the processing. I was wondering if additional toning with selenium might have contributed to that. I have heard people speculate that there might have been some sort of color coupling bleach or something responsible as well.

 

[isaac7]

It's not popular also because of substantial speed loss, low contrast and muddy highlights which make the process unappealing for films. It might work better with reversal of paper as noted here:

I think I invented a new way to do reversal processing using sepia toner...

I was playing about with some sepia toner for the first time and had a lightbulb moment. Not sure if this has been documented before but it's possible to use the sepia toner (in the reverse order - redeveloper before bleach) to do reversal processing: Expose paper Develop to completion Stop...

www.photrio.com

When done well none of things are true. Some of my favorite images of mine were done as positives. Large transparencies really are a wonder to behold.

 

[koraks]

I guess it makes it difficult (impossible?) to alter the results after the fact with other toners. Was wondering if subsequent toning in selenium or gold would alter the dmax. I’m guessing not.

Nope, this approach results in an image that's entirely made up of silver sulfide and none of the regular toners will be able to add anything to it at that point. There might be a way to chemically destabilize the AgS (although doing so without damaging the gelatin itself might be tricky), although I'm not so sure whether this allows much useful to be done afterward in terms of rebuilding the image in a different way.

I have heard people speculate that there might have been some sort of color coupling bleach or something responsible as well.

It's possible that this was part of the DR5 process; I really don't know. Dye-based toners used to be quite common and I think you can still get them. They work by chemically adhering a dye to the silver grain. I'm not sure if it would work with AgS. It's not a very popular way of toning due to the limited stability of the organic dyes involved.

 

[isaac7]

Nope, this approach results in an image that's entirely made up of silver sulfide and none of the regular toners will be able to add anything to it at that point. There might be a way to chemically destabilize the AgS (although doing so without damaging the gelatin itself might be tricky), although I'm not so sure whether this allows much useful to be done afterward in terms of rebuilding the image in a different way.


It's possible that this was part of the DR5 process; I really don't know. Dye-based toners used to be quite common and I think you can still get them. They work by chemically adhering a dye to the silver grain. I'm not sure if it would work with AgS. It's not a very popular way of toning due to the limited stability of the organic dyes involved.

I suppose that‘s the tradeoff. If you want archival qualities you don‘t want it to react with stuff lol. Here’s a 35mm pan F+ in DR5 developer 2. It would be nice to be able to make something like this on my own since DR5 has closed up shop.

 

[koraks]

Ah right, well, that's very sepia indeed. You should be able to get something similar with the simple workflow in the link you posted. If you hit just the right subject contrast, exposure and first development, you can get quite a beautiful result.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I suppose that‘s the tradeoff. If you want archival qualities you don‘t want it to react with stuff lol. Here’s a 35mm pan F+ in DR5 developer 2. It would be nice to be able to make something like this on my own since DR5 has closed up shop.

View attachment 397390

Try toning a regular BW slide in a hefty amount of Kala Namak, and push the film a couple of stops to lose shadow details.

 

[isaac7]

Try toning a regular BW slide in a hefty amount of Kala Namak, and push the film a couple of stops to lose shadow details.

This process with the sepia right after first developer seems to be a bit simpler, I’d probably start with that. I’ve read a lot of your posts here and I really like your pictures! I saw the experiments with the salt, has anyone experimented with regular sepia toner? Delta 100 looks like a great film for reversal. I’d mostly be shooting MF and LF so I assume tests across formats should give the same results right? Better to test with smaller formats.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

When done well none of things are true. Some of my favorite images of mine were done as positives. Large transparencies really are a wonder to behold.

I think you misunderstood me. My comments were specific to the sepia toner based approach to reversal processing which is beset with the issues I mentioned. There are many ways to make transparencies from film that produce lovely results but the sepia toner method that you linked in OP isn't one of those.

 

[isaac7]

I think you misunderstood me. My comments were specific to the sepia toner based approach to reversal processing which is beset with the issues I mentioned. There are many ways to make transparencies from film that produce lovely results but the sepia toner method that you linked in OP isn't one of those.

Ah, I did misunderstand, sorry! I do like the examples he posted but between the pinhole vignetting and the processing they are very… atmospheric lol. There’s no telling what the originals look like of course. Reading the comments he didn't use any hypo in the developer so that might have helped a bit. The simplicity of the process appeals to me, maybe it's only good for a specific look in specific conditions though.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

This process with the sepia right after first developer seems to be a bit simpler, I’d probably start with that. I’ve read a lot of your posts here and I really like your pictures! I saw the experiments with the salt, has anyone experimented with regular sepia toner? Delta 100 looks like a great film for reversal. I’d mostly be shooting MF and LF so I assume tests across formats should give the same results right? Better to test with smaller formats.

Thanks! Haven't touched anything larger than 135, but if the emulsion is the same and responds the same, then yes. So start with the cheapest option you are going to be using, get used to the workflow and have fun!
And Delta 100 is indeed a good option.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I saw the experiments with the salt, has anyone experimented with regular sepia toner?

I have used several sepia toners - Sulphide, Polysulphide, Thiourea, Kala Namak, Cubrome, etc as the second developer in regular reversal processing. All of them work well and give nice sepia toned slides - no surprise.

However, what you are interested is not in the regular reversal processing where the second development happens after bleaching but in a variant where second development happens before bleaching. The latter approach definitely has the advantage of not needing dichromate/permanganate bleach but also comes with the disadvantages of speed loss, unclear highlights and low contrast. If the goal is to make slides for projection purposes, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. BTW I did try this approach a couple of times and I am speaking from my own experience. I was disappointed with the results when compared to the results of the regular process. However, you should definitely try, see if it works out well for you and share your results.

 

[isaac7]

I have used several sepia toners - Sulphide, Polysulphide, Thiourea, Kala Namak, Cubrome, etc as the second developer in regular reversal processing. All of them work well and give nice sepia toned slides - no surprise.

However, what you are interested is not in the regular reversal processing where the second development happens after bleaching but in a variant where second development happens before bleaching. The latter approach definitely has the advantage of not needing dichromate/permanganate bleach but also comes with the disadvantages of speed loss, unclear highlights and low contrast. If the goal is to make slides for projection purposes, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. BTW I did try this approach a couple of times and I am speaking from my own experience. I was disappointed with the results when compared to the results of the regular process. However, you should definitely try, see if it works out well for you and share your results.

Thanks for the info! Looking at your pictures I see some with what I consider fairly subtle sepia tones. Have you seen anything that gets close to what I posted or the article I linked to? Has anyone tried using a brown toner on finished slides?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Have you seen anything that gets close to what I posted or the article I linked to? Has anyone tried using a brown toner on finished slides?

There is some room to play with the tonal palette if you use Thiourea toner by varying the ratio of Sodium Hydroxide to Thiourea. Working with finished slides is better than using the toner as the second developer in this respect as you can try out different rehalogenating bleaches on the finished slides and even partial bleaching to get the desired results. It is very similar to toning finished prints. With a new film, some experimentation will be definitely needed.

 

[koraks]

There is some room to play with the tonal palette if you use Thiourea toner by varying the ratio of Sodium Hydroxide to Thiourea.

Coincidentally, I posted something about this on my blog the other day: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/shades-of-brown-controlling-sepia-toning-hue/
It's a writeup of an experiment I did years ago.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Coincidentally, I posted something about this on my blog the other day: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/shades-of-brown-controlling-sepia-toning-hue/
It's a writeup of an experiment I did years ago.

That's a nice informative writeup! TFS.

 

[hgernhardt]

would this procedure perhaps lend itself well to direct enlarged internegative production (i.e. w/o first creating an interpositive) for alt processes?

 

[koraks]

Yes, it would work, but contrast control will be tricky. Then again, it always is for this purpose, so maybe that's a bit of a moot point. Still, with a normal silver-only internegative one could always intensify or bleach it, which isn't possible with a sepia image.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

It’s been a long time since I posted here, maybe going back to the APUG days… Anyway, I stumbled across this article

Making 4x5 Slides using a Sepia Toner Kit - By Andrew Smale

Recently, I was lucky enough to be invited to contribute to a project that was started by Dave Whenham (@elland_in) and John Martin (@TEMLIGHTIMAGES). The project is passing a homemade 4x5 pinhole camera around some invited contributors, who each use the camera and submit the results as content...

www.35mmc.com

It talks about doing film reversal processing with an off the shelf sepia toner and fericyanide bleach. His results remind me of the DR5 developer 2 that I loved so much. The process itself also seems very straightforward since the bleach step is much less fiddly and/or toxic compared to typical bleaches. I have several questions:

1) Can anyone give an overview of what’s happening chemically? Could redeveloping before bleaching be used with any other toners or developers?
2) How could you tweak this process to change things like contrast, color, etc.? I assume that all the regular stuff about the first developer still holds true for the most part. Or does it?
3) What do you think would be the impact of using some sort of poly toner like Moresch carbon toner instead of a sepia toner?

I loved what I got from DR5 years ago. I’m not quite in a position to start processing again right now but this process has my attention and curiosity. What do you think about it? Someone in the comments section said he used it in prints and I think there’s a thread here about that. I’m surprised that there hasn’t been any discussion here about using it for film.

If you want to use the sepia kit you can use the sulfide part as a redeveloper instead of the re-exposure + developer steps.
Or you can use an odourless sepia kit and use the thiourea part of it in the same manner as above.
You'll have to recalibrate your entire process (first developer time) if you want to use the sepia kits and you don't want to use the ferricyanide part.