Film photography predictions for 2015

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
Yawn. This supports my view. There is one supplier. I know Freestyle. It's a great place. It's also pretty much the only place.

Yawn? That's it? Hmm. That certainly explains a lot. OK. I think we'll stop right here then.

Carry on...

Ken

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yawn? That's it? Hmm. That certainly explains a lot. OK. I think we'll stop right here then.

Carry on...

Ken

What else would there be? Is there any place like Freestyle? Have you been to Samy's in Fairfax recently? They have practically no film items in their four floors.

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MattKing · Jan 7, 2015

Film isn't dead, but it definitely becoming a niche product, and certain parts of that niche - colour films - are definitely in danger.

If you have a business that produces colour photographic product, it may very well be a wise business decision to transition away from a product that is becoming more difficult to source to one that is becoming easier to source. If that describes tnabbott's situation, then he should feel free to decide that film is "dead" for his purposes.

But he should respect the fact that other people are prepared to deal with the sourcing challenges, and to support entities like Ferrania and others who are trying to carve out a new reality that does include film alternatives.

Death is not yet equivalent to radical change.

cliveh · Jan 7, 2015

Regardless of whether film photography is dead or not, I think chemical photography in all its guises will be around for many years to come.

Pioneer · Jan 7, 2015

I really don't think film is dead, but as young people begin to move to film, as many seem to be doing, it may morph into something different than what we recognize today.

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 7, 2015

Pioneer said:
I really don't think film is dead, but as young people begin to move to film, as many seem to be doing, it may morph into something different than what we recognize today.

A wise and prescient observation, I think...

Ken

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
I never said things were entirely unavailable. I said it was getting too difficult to source things. That is a difference. I realize any statement that film is dead meets with swift and passionate objection. However, it is getting increasingly difficult to source film and chemicals. The trend of discontinue notices and dwindling options is what was becoming too frustrating for me. I think the writing is on the wall. Any attempt to contest that film is on the way out is ridiculous.

So why is it hard to "source" this stuff when I just gave you the links? You obviously have an Internet connection. If you have a credit or debit card you can make a few mouse clicks and have any of this stuff you want at your door in a few days, tomorrow if you're willing to pay for that. Heck, it's often quicker as well as easier for me to buy online than it would be in person even if the stuff was carried by local stores. I'd have to find time to drive there, buy the stuff, and bring it home. Given my life and schedule and Atlanta area traffic it might be a week or more before I could arrange that, whereas I can order from the comfort of home in a few minutes and have Santa bring it in his brown sleigh in a couple of days.

"On the way out?" Of what? In terms of mainstream use for the vast majority of picture takers it isn't "on the way out" but rather already long gone. We all know that. But in terms of being available for hobbyists and artists who prefer to use it, it isn't gone and doesn't seem "on the way out" at all to me, with the exception of E6 and even that might be rescued by Film Ferrania. Color neg is in an odd sort of place between E6 (which I once referred to on here as having "one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel" so I obviously see your point about E6) and black and white, which seems safe to me in general terms for the foreseeable future. I think color negative film will be around for a while yet but I'm far from certain about it long term. RA4 paper is still made in fairly large amounts because it's still the best quality way to make affordable prints from digital files.

Fortunately for me my main interest is in black and white and I think I'll be able to get all the materials I want, maybe not the same selection but enough to do what I want, for the foreseeable future.

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
I just got out of film a few months ago. In time I'll probably stop visiting the site. What would be the point of your comment though? Are you submitting that my visiting APUG has some bearing on the state of film? If so, you would be giving me too much credit. I have nothing to do with the film industry.

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Nope, just wondering why you bother being here. That's a serious, not a sarcastic, question. If I thought an old hobby was really dead and gone and I wasn't going to try to pursue it anymore I would spend my time on things I was going to pursue.

I almost - almost - feel that way about my long time interest in ham radio, for rather different reasons. Large scale integration in solid state devices and things like digital synthesis have made building equipment lose much of the interest it had for me at one time. The Internet has made the communications abilities look lame in comparison, so the magic of talking to someone on the other side of the world is largely gone. I still check into a few sites from time to time, but I don't say "ham radio is dead!" because equipment, lots of it, is still made, people still use it etc. They dropped the morse code requirement for a license some years ago. I agreed it was obsolete but I always LIKED using code. It was my preferred means of communication on the HF (short wave) bands. Ham radio is not really so much "dead" as changed into something I'm not so interested in now, but I just leave it to those who are.

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
Now, all of that stuff you just finished reading about is readily available to you in less than 6-8 mouse clicks from the same comfort in which you are currently reading this post. Then in a matter of a couple of days a small army of elves in dark brown shirts will deliver whatever your heart desires right to your front door. All you need do is to sleep twice, then stand up and go open that door.

....

Ken

I posted about Santa's brown sleigh before reading this. Great minds and all, right?

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
Yawn. This supports my view. There is one supplier. I know Freestyle. It's a great place. It's also pretty much the only place.

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Balderdash. I love Freestyle because they support traditional photography and, very importantly, have a vast selection of stuff all available from the same source (and unlike B&H will ship any chemical they carry within the US) but they're far from the only place:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

Dead Link Removed

http://www.ultrafineonline.com/

Dead Link Removed

Want to mix up some chemicals from scratch and make stuff not available or no longer available commercially, or always have a fresh source of stuff you don't use often? Here you go:

http://www.artcraftchemicals.com

http://stores.photoformulary.com

pdeeh · Jan 7, 2015

I confidently predict that there will be more predictions of the end of film ...

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Great minds and all, right?

I think the problem here is the delta between "It's difficult to source" and "I don't wanna' source". That difference is huge.

Surrendering credibility by pejoratively sleeping through an otherwise serious discussion doesn't help much either.

Ken

removedacct1 · Jan 7, 2015

I predict that I'm going to spend as much as I can afford this year to load up the freezer with my favorite emulsions.

(He says as he laces his shoes for a trip to the mailbox to retrieve a package from B&H.)

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

MattKing said:
Film isn't dead, but it definitely becoming a niche product, and certain parts of that niche - colour films - are definitely in danger.

If you have a business that produces colour photographic product, it may very well be a wise business decision to transition away from a product that is becoming more difficult to source to one that is becoming easier to source. If that describes tnabbott's situation, then he should feel free to decide that film is "dead" for his purposes.

But he should respect the fact that other people are prepared to deal with the sourcing challenges, and to support entities like Ferrania and others who are trying to carve out a new reality that does include film alternatives.

Death is not yet equivalent to radical change.

I don't disagree with this sentiment. But the reaction to any posting on this form that has "film" and "dead" in the same sentence is peculiar. If anyone thinks film is a healthy industry they are, in my view, ignoring the facts. Why is this so hard to accept or so offensive when mentioned in response to a general "predictions" thread? Is it now disrespectful to respond to a general "predictions" thread if the prediction is not consistent with our collective desire (that film flourish and remain ever competitive with other media)?

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
So why is it hard to "source" this stuff when I just gave you the links? You obviously have an Internet connection. If you have a credit or debit card you can make a few mouse clicks and have any of this stuff you want at your door in a few days, tomorrow if you're willing to pay for that. Heck, it's often quicker as well as easier for me to buy online than it would be in person even if the stuff was carried by local stores. I'd have to find time to drive there, buy the stuff, and bring it home. Given my life and schedule and Atlanta area traffic it might be a week or more before I could arrange that, whereas I can order from the comfort of home in a few minutes and have Santa bring it in his brown sleigh in a couple of days.

"On the way out?" Of what? In terms of mainstream use for the vast majority of picture takers it isn't "on the way out" but rather already long gone. We all know that. But in terms of being available for hobbyists and artists who prefer to use it, it isn't gone and doesn't seem "on the way out" at all to me, with the exception of E6 and even that might be rescued by Film Ferrania. Color neg is in an odd sort of place between E6 (which I once referred to on here as having "one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel" so I obviously see your point about E6) and black and white, which seems safe to me in general terms for the foreseeable future. I think color negative film will be around for a while yet but I'm far from certain about it long term. RA4 paper is still made in fairly large amounts because it's still the best quality way to make affordable prints from digital files.

Fortunately for me my main interest is in black and white and I think I'll be able to get all the materials I want, maybe not the same selection but enough to do what I want, for the foreseeable future.

Roger, follow slowly so you can keep up. The links you provided point to one merchant, who seems to be one of only a few remaining in the country that will ship chemicals. Someone chimed in about B&H but they do not ship chemicals any more. This is not difficult stuff.

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Balderdash. I love Freestyle because they support traditional photography and, very importantly, have a vast selection of stuff all available from the same source (and unlike B&H will ship any chemical they carry within the US) but they're far from the only place:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

Dead Link Removed

http://www.ultrafineonline.com/

Dead Link Removed

Want to mix up some chemicals from scratch and make stuff not available or no longer available commercially, or always have a fresh source of stuff you don't use often? Here you go:

http://www.artcraftchemicals.com

http://stores.photoformulary.com

Not chemicals! Also, mixing chemistry from scratch is not interesting to me. That is part of my point. Yes, one can get by for now, but the alternatives are dwindling and the time it takes leaves less time for making exposures. Did you read the entirety of my original posting?

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
Not chemicals! Also, mixing chemistry from scratch is not interesting to me. That is part of my point. Yes, one can get by for now, but the alternatives are dwindling and the time it takes leaves less time for making exposures. Did you read the entirety of my original posting?

Most of those DO ship chemicals. B&H will, in fact, ship some chemicals. The others do. Maybe not the selection of Freestyle, but they do ship.

I did a search on the B&H site for black and white chemicals with "free shipping" which doesn't even include the stuff they will ship, but not for free. It returned 62 items. Now yes, color is more difficult if you don't go through Freestyle but if they went away tomorrow I'm quite sure someone else would step up. I'm not sure if this link will work this way to the search results but let's see:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...Film+&+Paper+Chemistry&ci=576&N=4288586387+11

Well...I checked that, and the link works but even searching for "free shipping" turns up the stuff they won't ship. No matter - they WILL ship everything you really need - film developers (some of them) fixers (some of them) and paper developers (some of them.) You don't need stop bath but they will ship it. They will ship wash aids, or you can just get sulphite from one of the bulk chem suppliers. (Handy stuff - some of that and some metol and you're in business with D23 but, yeah, not of interest...)

Ken is right. It's not that it's difficult, you just don't want to do it. That's your right of course. But don't tell me it's difficult when I find it quite easy.

EDIT: Heck, I looked more closely and B&H will ship quite a few toners. I'd just assumed those would be the most difficult. I'd have to give up some of my favorites (I'd miss Diafine) in favor of learning some new ones, but I could do ALL my black and white work using stuff that B&H WILL ship.

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

I disagree. But even if I accept you premise you're still talking about very few options. Again, I feel compelled to ask whether you actually read the entirety of my initial post.

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Photo Engineer · Jan 7, 2015

"Film is dead" is a statement, but "film is going to die out in 2015" is a prediction based on an opinion.

Recently, NBC news reported a large increase in vinyl record sales! Are they coming back? No, but the market increased. Same thing happened for film in mid year 2014, a mild surge in film sales.

Bottom line, film is NOT dead, it will not die out in 2015. It will get harder to purchase film and processing supplies and products will vanish. APUG members and subscribers will help keep it alive. Kodak is not giving up but they have been hurt by these changes as has Fuji.

PE

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

Yeah, I read it all, every one of them, but I won't be making that mistake again.

Thanks PE. Pretty much what the rest of us have been trying to say. "Fewer selections and less common" != "dead"

Sirius Glass · Jan 7, 2015

If Jeep and Ford were to produce fewer models or fewer vehicles we would not be running around screaming the "cars are dead". Only the journalists would be running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off yelling that "cars are dead". So the real question is does one have a brain or is one a journalist?

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
"Fewer selections and less common" != "dead"

You C/C++ hack...

Sirius Glass · Jan 7, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
You C/C++ hack...

Hey, give him a break UNIX could have made him one! :devil:

eddie · Jan 7, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Only the journalists would be running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off yelling that "cars are dead". So the real question is does one have a brain or is one a journalist?

This is an absurd statement. There are many journalists doing excellent work, and risking their lives to inform us. More than a few have paid the ultimate price in trying to keep the world informed.

Sirius Glass · Jan 7, 2015

eddie said:
This is an absurd statement. There are many journalists doing excellent work, and risking their lives to inform us. More than a few have paid the ultimate price in trying to keep the world informed.

Those journalist are contributing to society and the world, many of the rest just want to sell newspapers or waste bandwidth to make money without regard for reality.

Film photography predictions for 2015

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