Film photography predictions for 2015

StoneNYC · Jan 5, 2015

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
Digital free? I shoot color with a Sony NEX-6 and on iPhone 6. It's far from free once I add in the cost for digital storage, back ups, etc.

As for film cost? Do the math but take inflation and purchasing power parity into account. How much was film per roll back in your Magic the Gathering days? I'd say it's cheaper today in relative comparison. Heck if it increased in price like most things have since then it should be $15 or more per roll today!

It sounds like you are arguing AGAINST my statement when in fact we are in agreement... Lol

Also I did say "free" with quotes because I agree the cost of the digital item needs to be considered as well.

And yes it's cheaper now with inflation than then, we agree.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jan 5, 2015

StoneNYC said:
It sounds like you are arguing AGAINST my statement when in fact we are in agreement... Lol

Also I did say "free" with quotes because I agree the cost of the digital item needs to be considered as well.

And yes it's cheaper now with inflation than then, we agree.

Then let's agree to agree.

Roger Cole · Jan 5, 2015

Digital has essentially zero marginal cost for additional exposures (which leads to what I call "spray and pray.") We talk about the same thing in aviation where renting an airplane comes out cheaper than owning for the vast majority of pilots if they fly less than about 100-150 hours per year, but not only is it much less convenient to rent but those who own also fly more - easier to take it on trips and keep it away overnight or multiple days (prohibitively expensive for most rentals, "free" if you own it,) take it when you have an hour or two on a whim, and besides your fixed costs, which are the major chunk, are already sunk. Once you sink that, flying more costs really only fuel and oil (and overhaul reserve but that's often years away and easily put out of mind.) Same with digital with smaller numbers - a new DSLR and lenses will cost way more than good film gear, but once you have it they cost almost nothing more to "run" and even the storage for the images is dirt cheap these days.

Of course you may replace that wunderplastik in a few years for another overpriced chunk of same, but that still has nothing to do with how much you used the previous model. Use it none or wear it out, either way it's going to become obsolete.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jan 5, 2015

Roger Cole said:
That spray and pray approach is a bad habit that I thankfully never developed in digital even though I've shot some of that (not much.) Habits already formed by decades in film I guess.

For the ultimate slow down, get into large format. Even at over a buck a shot I find the film (black and white - color is quite hideous so when I do shoot color in my view camera I use a roll film back) turns out cheaper for an outing, or at least no more. An afternoon's shooting might see me make three or four images, with maybe a couple of sheets exposed for each.

The best thing I ever did for my photography, years ago, was to SLOW down. I was on an eastern Sierra photo workshop about 10 years ago and easily 90% of us were using tripods and carefully composing, taking our time, even with 35mm cameras. One woman had her new prosumer AF Something-SLR with a big 24-300 or something zoom lens and tulip-hood and she was actually pooh-poohing the rest of the us, saying things like "I hate using tripods, you hardly have time to take any shots! I've already shot three rolls this morning!" as if it was a race or something. We gathered later and did some sharing and critique of our chromes. Her's were god-awful. I did not realize how bad "snaps" of such beautiful autumn colors of the eastern Sierra could actually be!

I have another friend whose husband always has the latest Canikon DSLR and every few months finds reasons to buy another lens (or upgrade, as he calls it). They went to Europe last summer for 2 weeks, usual spots, London, Paris, Rome, etc. He took almost 4000 images. She says he still has not gone through all of them.

Roger Cole · Jan 5, 2015

It used to drive me bonkers looking through my own contact sheets when I'd have 3-4 almost identical images and have to pick one, so I stopped doing that unless I had a real reason - bracketing in very tricky light for example but then the change needs to be big enough that you can at least choose one. I can't imagine looking through 4000 frames.

tnabbott · Jan 6, 2015

StoneNYC said:
If you're having supply problems in the USA it's YOU and bad habits not the supply...

Sad to see you go but what a terrible outlook when I don't have any supply issues except getting Velvia50 in 8x10, which I've now solved and I doubt you're talking about that.

This is an idiotic response.

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StoneNYC · Jan 6, 2015

tnabbott said:
This is an idiotic response.

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I'm not upset at your response, but I don't understand it either, the US isn't a country where there are issues with supplies like in other countries, we can basically order anything online and have it delivered within 2 days, if you're having a supply problem, it's you that are either not informed or your supply process is flawed. Heck, I just ordered some Velvia50 in 8x10 fresh in-date which I received from japan in less than 2 weeks with the cheap shipping option, if I really wanted to pay the money I could have probably had it in a few days.

In the US essentially ANYTHING can be had if you really need it (unless its actually not made anymore, and even then... ) so I'm not sure how it's idiotic... sure if you INSIST on buying from your local guy, and that local guy had a hard time getting some Velvia50 in himself, yes that's a supply problem, but it's their problem not yours, and if you really make the attempt, you can get whatever you want. Hence my comment, if you're claiming supply problems, it's mostly because of your methods.

NedL · Jan 6, 2015

Roger Cole said:
It used to drive me bonkers looking through my own contact sheets when I'd have 3-4 almost identical images and have to pick one, so I stopped doing that unless I had a real reason - bracketing in very tricky light for example but then the change needs to be big enough that you can at least choose one. I can't imagine looking through 4000 frames.

Oh man, Roger, I don't do it either. Same reason. Usually only one, and I'm a very slow shooter... I get many frames I want to print from each roll.
But my favorite shot of 2014, and I'm kicking myself because I know what park I was in but not where I was standing and haven't been able to figure it out after many trips back.... a bit of felt came off the cassette and was stuck square in the middle of the frame. It would have been my favorite print from last year. I wish I'd made two exposures. Sometimes I do make 2 or 3 exposures if I know it's going to be special, but I did not realize how special this one was until I printed it.

tnabbott · Jan 6, 2015

Roger Cole said:
What? I have ZERO problems with such in black and white. I did have to go from TMZ to D3200 in 35mm but that's been it, and I already used it in 120 so it was no issue.

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I should clarify the I shot primarily in color (E6 & C41).

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Roger Cole · Jan 6, 2015

NedL said:
Oh man, Roger, I don't do it either. Same reason. Usually only one, and I'm a very slow shooter... I get many frames I want to print from each roll.
But my favorite shot of 2014, and I'm kicking myself because I know what park I was in but not where I was standing and haven't been able to figure it out after many trips back.... a bit of felt came off the cassette and was stuck square in the middle of the frame. It would have been my favorite print from last year. I wish I'd made two exposures. Sometimes I do make 2 or 3 exposures if I know it's going to be special, but I did not realize how special this one was until I printed it.

Shooting an extra frame or two in case of film accident is different from shooting a bunch of shots hoping one is good. I almost always shoot two identical sheets of 4x5 when I see something I like, but that's just in the hope that one of them turns out dust free!

Roger Cole · Jan 6, 2015

tnabbott said:
I should clarify the I shot primarily in color (E6 & C41).

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Well the only problems I've had there are the discontinuation of favorite E6 films, as I posted above. No problems with neg film although if I had been in the habit of shooting much of it in 4x5 the disappearance (in the US anyway) of Fuji and the tremendous price hikes on Kodak would be quite annoying, at best. Color sheet film is pretty absurdly priced, though at least it is available.

lxdude · Jan 6, 2015

benjiboy said:
I mentioned something about The Beetles during dinner in a conversation about John Lennon Airport in Liverpool to a sixteen year old daughter of two of my friends who had invited my wife and I for a meal a few weeks ago, she replied " who ? ", she had never heard of them..

That's because you pronounced it with the wrong spelling.

NedL · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Shooting an extra frame or two in case of film accident is different from shooting a bunch of shots hoping one is good. I almost always shoot two identical sheets of 4x5 when I see something I like, but that's just in the hope that one of them turns out dust free!

Yep, of course!

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Well the only problems I've had there are the discontinuation of favorite E6 films, as I posted above. No problems with neg film although if I had been in the habit of shooting much of it in 4x5 the disappearance (in the US anyway) of Fuji and the tremendous price hikes on Kodak would be quite annoying, at best. Color sheet film is pretty absurdly priced, though at least it is available.

Roger, your adopting the faulty premises on which Stone based his rather rude comments. You are much more polite though, thanks. Here is the issue for me: I enjoyed developing the film and making prints with an enlarger. Yes, some color film remains--although options are dwindling. However, this only covers the exposure step. It became very difficult to acquire chemicals for developing the film and paper. Film is dead. A small number of folks here just don't realize it yet.

Roger Cole · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
Roger, your adopting the faulty premises on which Stone based his rather rude comments. You are much more polite though, thanks. Here is the issue for me: I enjoyed developing the film and making prints with an enlarger. Yes, some color film remains--although options are dwindling. However, this only covers the exposure step. It became very difficult to acquire chemicals for developing the film and paper. Film is dead. A small number of folks here just don't realize it yet.

Are you specifically talking about color printing?

Some choices for paper:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/8-Paper/Color-RA-4-Paper

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Fujifilm&ci=801&N=4288586367+4136148400+4291439075

I omitted the Kodak paper only available now in rolls though it's possible to cut that down yourself, or to buy it off eBay in sheets cut down by others.

Chemicals for RA4:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-139

Drew has posted that he's tested the Arista branded chemicals and found them indistinguishable from Kodak.

Chemicals for C41:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-140

I just don't see the problem.

And I really don't mean to be impolite, but I do wonder why anyone who really believed that "film is dead" would waste their time on APUG. Maybe you aren't entirely convinced?

The one thing - ok, a few things - I miss in color are a good slide film of ISO 400 or more (RIP my beloved Provia 400X) and either Ilfochrome or a good type R paper and chemicals.

lxdude · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
Film is dead.

Yep, you're right. Completely dead. The base is made from stuff that was once living, but is now...dead. And the gelatin is made from things that were once living... also now dead. And the silver and all the other things that go into the base and coating that are non-living...I guess that means we can say they're dead, too.
So it's settled. Film is dead.
Long live film!

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Are you specifically talking about color printing?

Some choices for paper:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/8-Paper/Color-RA-4-Paper

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Fujifilm&ci=801&N=4288586367+4136148400+4291439075

I omitted the Kodak paper only available now in rolls though it's possible to cut that down yourself, or to buy it off eBay in sheets cut down by others.

Chemicals for RA4:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-139

Drew has posted that he's tested the Arista branded chemicals and found them indistinguishable from Kodak.

Chemicals for C41:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-140

I just don't see the problem.

And I really don't mean to be impolite, but I do wonder why anyone who really believed that "film is dead" would waste their time on APUG. Maybe you aren't entirely convinced?

The one thing - ok, a few things - I miss in color are a good slide film of ISO 400 or more (RIP my beloved Provia 400X) and either Ilfochrome or a good type R paper and chemicals.

I never said things were entirely unavailable. I said it was getting too difficult to source things. That is a difference. I realize any statement that film is dead meets with swift and passionate objection. However, it is getting increasingly difficult to source film and chemicals. The trend of discontinue notices and dwindling options is what was becoming too frustrating for me. I think the writing is on the wall. Any attempt to contest that film is on the way out is ridiculous.

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
Film is dead. People just don't realize it yet. Newsflash: So is the US economy due to overwhelming deficit. People just don't realize it yet.
This was not a political post. It was illustrative only to convey a point. Buggy whips are dead. So are parts for a 1950 DeSoto. And vacuum tubes.
Except I can still acquire them all to this day.
You "film is dead" people sound like stock pumpers or partisan shills.
.

Great! You've put on as Exhibit A the most basic of logical fallacies. Okay, even if the US economy is dead (I am accepting your premise for the moment) that says nothing about the conclusion I adopted in my response to the thread. This thread asks for film photography predictions for 2015. I responded that I think film is dead and people just do not realize it yet. I went on to explain that in my personal experience it was getting too difficult to source product. My conclusion is not based on anything regarding the US economy.

Please, try not to drink before you post (same as driving). And remember, if you are buzzed you shouldn't post either!

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Well the only problems I've had there are the discontinuation of favorite E6 films, as I posted above. No problems with neg film although if I had been in the habit of shooting much of it in 4x5 the disappearance (in the US anyway) of Fuji and the tremendous price hikes on Kodak would be quite annoying, at best. Color sheet film is pretty absurdly priced, though at least it is available.

I agree the problem is more pronounced with E6. In C41 Fuji exited (or is pretty much exited). I liked Reala quite a lot. Again, I am not saying that there is no film; no chemicals; no places to get things processed. I am saying it is getting so sparce that, to me at least, the writing is on the wall. And, more specifically, for me the process was no longer much fun because I had to worry so much about where I would get my next batch of chemicals or whether my favorite film was going to be discontinued.

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

lxdude said:
Yep, you're right. Completely dead. The base is made from stuff that was once living, but is now...dead. And the gelatin is made from things that were once living... also now dead. And the silver and all the other things that go into the base and coating that are non-living...I guess that means we can say they're dead, too.
So it's settled. Film is dead.
Long live film!

So interesting how personal or at least emotional every takes my prediction. It's nothing new about film. I am surprised there are not more pragmatic responses.

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tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
Film is dead. People just don't realize it yet. Newsflash: So is the US economy due to overwhelming deficit. People just don't realize it yet.
This was not a political post. It was illustrative only to convey a point. Buggy whips are dead. So are parts for a 1950 DeSoto. And vacuum tubes.
Except I can still acquire them all to this day.
You "film is dead" people sound like stock pumpers or partisan shills.
.

After reading your response again, I have to say I agree. Film will likely be available on sites like eBay. But to me that has little interest, so I say it is dead.

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tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Are you specifically talking about color printing?

Some choices for paper:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/8-Paper/Color-RA-4-Paper

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Fujifilm&ci=801&N=4288586367+4136148400+4291439075

I omitted the Kodak paper only available now in rolls though it's possible to cut that down yourself, or to buy it off eBay in sheets cut down by others.

Chemicals for RA4:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-139

Drew has posted that he's tested the Arista branded chemicals and found them indistinguishable from Kodak.

Chemicals for C41:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/category/13-Chemicals/Color-Chemicals?attr[]=30-140

I just don't see the problem.

And I really don't mean to be impolite, but I do wonder why anyone who really believed that "film is dead" would waste their time on APUG. Maybe you aren't entirely convinced?

The one thing - ok, a few things - I miss in color are a good slide film of ISO 400 or more (RIP my beloved Provia 400X) and either Ilfochrome or a good type R paper and chemicals.

I just got out of film a few months ago. In time I'll probably stop visiting the site. What would be the point of your comment though? Are you submitting that my visiting APUG has some bearing on the state of film? If so, you would be giving me too much credit. I have nothing to do with the film industry.

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David Brown · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
I just got out of film a few months ago. In time I'll probably stop visiting the site. ...

I got out of color film years ago. :munch:

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 7, 2015

tnabbott said:
So interesting how personal or at least emotional every takes my prediction. It's nothing new about film. I am surprised there are not more pragmatic responses.

OK, I'll take that pragmatic response axe...

First, you're not making a prediction. You're stating your own foregone industry-wide conclusion and claiming surprise as to why everyone else (on a film-centric forum, no less) doesn't quite see the situation like you do. Big difference.

Second, that film and film-related products have come and gone over the last 170+ years is what is nothing new about film. There are demonstrably more film and film-related choices available today, and easily available I might add, than there were in the 50's and early 60s, prior to the Golden Age of the 70s.

Third, click on this link, then download the left-hand item and read all 60 pages. Don't skip any, now. Read each and every one in its entirety. Then come back here and tell me with a straight face that sourcing supplies today is becoming difficult or impossible. And when you do, please include your own personal definition of "difficult".

[...]

Now, all of that stuff you just finished reading about is readily available to you in less than 6-8 mouse clicks from the same comfort in which you are currently reading this post. Then in a matter of a couple of days a small army of elves in dark brown shirts will deliver whatever your heart desires right to your front door. All you need do is to sleep twice, then stand up and go open that door.

And as far as something being dead, I've had the misfortune in my life of seeing real death up close. Sadly, several times. In one case close enough to see the almost indescribable fear and panic in someone's face who five seconds earlier had no idea it was coming. She was 15-years-old.

So trust me when I say to you that film is not dead. Nor, I think, will it be in another five seconds...

Ken

tnabbott · Jan 7, 2015

Ken Nadvornick said:
OK, I'll take that pragmatic response axe...

First, you're not making a prediction. You're stating your own foregone industry-wide conclusion and claiming surprise as to why everyone else (on a film-centric forum, no less) doesn't quite see the situation like you do. Big difference.

Second, that film and film-related products have come and gone over the last 170+ years is what is nothing new about film. There are demonstrably more film and film-related choices available today, and easily available I might add, than there were in the 50's and early 60s, prior to the Golden Age of the 70s.

Third, click on this link, then download the left-hand item and read all 60 pages. Don't skip any, now. Read each and every one in its entirety. Then come back here and tell me with a straight face that sourcing supplies today is becoming difficult or impossible. And when you do, please include your own personal definition of "difficult".

[...]

Now, all of that stuff you just finished reading about is readily available to you in less than 6-8 mouse clicks from the same comfort in which you are currently reading this post. Then in a matter of a couple of days a small army of elves in dark brown shirts will deliver whatever your heart desires right to your front door. All you need do is to sleep twice, then stand up and go open that door.

And as far as something being dead, I've had the misfortune in my life of seeing real death up close. Sadly, several times. In one case close enough to see the almost indescribable fear and panic in someone's face who five seconds earlier had no idea it was coming. She was 15-years-old.

So trust me when I say to you that film is not dead. Nor, I think, will it be in another five seconds...

Ken

Yawn. This supports my view. There is one supplier. I know Freestyle. It's a great place. It's also pretty much the only place.

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Film photography predictions for 2015

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