Film not welcome at Empire State Building

CropDusterMan · Feb 18, 2016

A couple of days ago, was in New York and busy shooting...went to take my wife up the
Empire State Building as she'd never been to NY, and when I went to visitor security screening
with a small camera bag and four rolls of film (Domke F2 that had a Leica M4-P and a Rolieflex 2.8C)
and asked for a hand check of some film, the guy called his supervisor over who flat out refused
to hand check the film. Both cameras were unloaded, so it was just the film (2 x 120, 2 x 35mm).

I asked if he could reconsider, seeing as TSA always hand-checks for me when asked, he flat out refused.
"Nothing gets up-stairs without being x-rayed". Guy was a total dick and it wasn't even busy. I think this
was totally unreasonable, and I understand the need for security, but to me, there is no excuse.

J

BrianShaw · Feb 18, 2016

So what did you do; disappoint your wife by getting mad and leaving without taking her to the top?

Eric Rose · Feb 19, 2016

I wouldn't worry to much about the odd xray on your film. I just exposed and developed a roll of very old FP4 that has gone all over the world for many years in a deep recess of my camera bag. I couldn't even hazard a guess at how many times it had been xrayed. Came out perfect.

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 19, 2016

On the other hand, airport scanners used by the TSA are a known quantity. Everyone knows that carry-on film is pretty safe below ISO 800, and that checked baggage is a huge no-no. No surprises there. Pack your film down into the aircraft baggage hold and it's your own fault.

But unless one has prior knowledge of facilities and equipment beyond airports, who knows what kind of radiation dose one might get? If they are using kryptonite ray scanners you could be doomed without ever knowing it...

Ken

Steve Smith · Feb 19, 2016

You get airport style scanning just to go up the Empire State Building??

Steve.

Roger Cole · Feb 19, 2016

Just another symptom of a society gone mad.

I remember when not only would this have been unthinkable, but one didn't even need an ID to cash a check, and even serious deals were often sealed with a handshake, which carried more weight then and there than a notarized signature does now. Granted that was a small town but even small towns aren't like that now.

When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere.

Robert A. Heinlein

I'm very disappointed that, contrary to my expectations as a boy growing up, it still isn't possible to go anywhere else.

I really don't want to live on this planet anymore.

/rant

Ian Grant · Feb 19, 2016

CropDusterMan said:
I asked if he could reconsider, seeing as TSA always hand-checks for me when asked, he flat out refused.
"Nothing gets up-stairs without being x-rayed". Guy was a total dick and it wasn't even busy. I think this
was totally unreasonable, and I understand the need for security, but to me, there is no excuse.

J

Actually it's normal policy in many places, in different parts of the world, so it's your attitude that was unreasonable. As the machines used are the same film safe types used in airports they are totally safe for many multiple passes. If they weren't safe the operators would have to wear dose-meters or work behind lead shields.

I gave up worrying many years ago after my films (and my wife's) were scanned many times, over 20 on a trip to Chile & Peru. Since then I've had films scanned multiple times quite regularly never with an issue. It's time people realised that companies put a lot of work into the scanners to make them safe for films and the operators. There was a committee in the UK made up of the film companies, security experts, trade associations etc who liaised with the scanner manufacturers to resolve these issues well over a decade ago.

Ian

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2016

For the sake of others on APUG or even those who use internet browsers to check on things and who may be planning a trip to the Empire State Building a more accurate thread title might be: Film must be scanned at Empire State Building.

pentaxuser

winger · Feb 19, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Actually it's normal policy in many places, in different parts of the world, so it's your attitude that was unreasonable. As the machines used are the same film safe types used in airports they are totally safe for many multiple passes. If they weren't safe the operators would have to wear dose-meters or work behind lead shields.

I gave up worrying many years ago after my films (and my wife's) were scanned many times, over 20 on a trip to Chile & Peru. Since then I've had films scanned multiple times quite regularly never with an issue. It's time people realised that companies put a lot of work into the scanners to make them safe for films and the operators. There was a committee in the UK made up of the film companies, security experts, trade associations etc who liaised with the scanner manufacturers to resolve these issues well over a decade ago.

Ian

I do not assume all scanners are safe or that they're the same as those used for carry-on baggage. The one time my film got affected by X-rays, it was the scanner at one of the palaces in the UK that did it. I could tell based on when I had purchased each roll and whether they had gone through airport ones or not. The ones screwed up were screwed up by the palace.

BrianShaw · Feb 19, 2016

... Or, refining the proposed alternative title even further: "All bags must be X-ray scanned to enter the Empire State Building; No exemption allowed for film,"

Bill Burk · Feb 19, 2016

Maybe if they sold film in the gift shop it could be a non-issue.

Rick A · Feb 19, 2016

So next time, put your film in your pocket, don't show it to them.

Alan Klein · Feb 19, 2016

NYC was a prime target on 911. The Empire State Bldg is a prime target within NYC for future attacks and they get thousands of visitors every day. So they're a little nervous. They also don't want to hold up lines with individual searches. They're not TSA which is a federal agency that works at airports. The building is privately owned; they make their own rules consistent with their exposure. Their insurance company may also require that everything gets X-rayed. Period. I'm sure you can understand. I wonder how security works in the new World Trade Center?

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2016

winger said:
The one time my film got affected by X-rays, it was the scanner at one of the palaces in the UK that did it. The ones screwed up were screwed up by the palace.

I take it that it was just a U.K. palace and not The U.K. Palace otherwise your accusatory statement probably constitutes High Treason.

pentaxuser

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 19, 2016

Ian Grant said:
As the machines used are the same film safe types used in airports they are totally safe for many multiple passes.

How do you know this, such that you state it here as a fact for future reference?

Ken

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 19, 2016

Bill Burk said:
Maybe if they sold film in the gift shop it could be a non-issue.

Ahh, yes... The outside-the-box solution is often the best solution...

Ken

(Sean! What happened to the :w00t: face!!)

DREW WILEY · Feb 19, 2016

What the big deal? Just let them X-ray it. As long as it's not faster speed than ASA 400 you should be fine.

winger · Feb 19, 2016

pentaxuser said:
I take it that it was just a U.K. palace and not The U.K. Palace otherwise your accusatory statement probably constitutes High Treason.

pentaxuser

The Queen was in residence, so it was one of "those" palaces. Saying they ruined some of my film isn't treason - threatening them for it would be. Luckily, most (not all) of the shots affected sucked anyway. My Tintern rolls were fine.

bdial · Feb 19, 2016

I've had film run through NYC building security scanners, there was no issue with it. I'm sure the security scanner at the Empire State building has seen lots of film. That's not to say they can't damage film, but, FWIW, the machines look just like the ones at the airports.

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2016

winger said:
The Queen was in residence, so it was one of "those" palaces. Saying they ruined some of my film isn't treason - threatening them for it would be. Luckily, most (not all) of the shots affected sucked anyway. My Tintern rolls were fine.

I take it this was Buckingham Palace? When was this? I wonder how many other films the Palace has ruined or indeed may still be ruining and what made this scanner more lethal than those used at U.K. airports? A few years ago someone dressed as Osama Bin Laden for a joke got into a Garden Party at what I think was Buck House as we call it. Maybe the scanner rays were made lethal after that

pentaxuser

AgX · Feb 19, 2016

CropDusterMan said:
I asked if he could reconsider, seeing as TSA always hand-checks for me when asked, he flat out refused.
"Nothing gets up-stairs without being x-rayed". Guy was a total dick and it wasn't even busy. I think this
was totally unreasonable, and I understand the need for security, but to me, there is no excuse.

That security service was not bound to follow TSA rules or guidelines, you were on a ground more private than an airport, you were there for sight-seeing.
You asked, he refused. So what?

ritternathan · Feb 19, 2016

They also x-ray everything when you visit Ellis Island and/or the Statue of Liberty. I've been there several times, the first time they took away my pocket knife, but when I asked for a hand check for my 120 film they acted like it was no big deal.

Theo Sulphate · Feb 19, 2016

Roger Cole said:
...
When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away.
...

Cheer up!

Although you need ID to board a plane, to enter certain buildings, to rent a car, to check into a hotel, to get and fill out your 4473 form, and so on... in 17 states you don't need an ID to vote. Sweet!

...
I really don't want to live on this planet anymore.
...

Sure you do - you just need to find the right enclave that hasn't gone to hell. Which is why I left the Democratic People's Republic...

BAC1967 · Feb 19, 2016

The only time I had film damaged by X-Rays was a trip to New York a few years ago and it was Scanned twice at the Empire State Building. I had a Bolex 8mm movie camera loaded with Ektachrome 100D with a pistol grip. The agent saw the grip so she decided to run it through again. Including airports that film was scanned a total of 5 times on that trip. I've had film scanned at airports since then with no problems. Maybe they bought some old scanners from before they were made safe for film. I was later told by a TSA agent that X-Rays can damage chrome film more than others. I'm not sure where he got that from. I just brought some more 8mm Ektachrome 100D on a trip to Costa Rica and had it scanned 3 times, we'll see how that comes out.

winger · Feb 19, 2016

pentaxuser said:
I take it this was Buckingham Palace? When was this? I wonder how many other films the Palace has ruined or indeed may still be ruining and what made this scanner more lethal than those used at U.K. airports? A few years ago someone dressed as Osama Bin Laden for a joke got into a Garden Party at what I think was Buck House as we call it. Maybe the scanner rays were made lethal after that

pentaxuser

It wasn't Buckingham Palace - I think it was Windsor (though maybe Edinburgh). And it was in spring 2002, so tensions were still kinda high. My bag supposedly got stuck and the beam was on the whole time.

Film not welcome at Empire State Building

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