Film hardener?

IloveTLRs · Aug 3, 2010

Recently I've been shooting Fuji Acros 100, but unfortunately it scratches easily Is there something I can use to harden it, or make it less scratch-prone?

A local photo place told me no, since Acros was meant for machine development, not by hand. They recommended I use Neopan SS, instead. My BS Meter immediately went off :rolleyes: I've seen Ilford's "Rapid Hardener", is that what I should use?

2F/2F · Aug 3, 2010

Your B.S. meter appears to be in working order.

Per Simon of Ilford, their hardener can be added to their Hypam, but not to their Rapid Fixer. Hypam is effectively the same otherwise.

Hypam is also significantly cheaper, at least here in the U.S.A.

These things being true, I don't have any idea why they even make Rapid Fixer.

This being said, I am not sure that lack of hardening is causing your problem. Modern emulsions should be perfectly fine without a hardener.

Where are the scratches (emulsion or base), and how are they oriented? How are you processing the film, and what camera are you using to expose it? Do you have the problem in all cameras and all formats you have tried?

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 3, 2010

I've been told by fellow APUGers not to use hardener with my fix. Processing film in warm chemicals increases your chances of scratches. When I first started to soup BW film many years ago, I scratched my film my squeezing the squeegee too hard. Being gentle goes a long way in avoid scratches. I worked in a lab where they used lintless Kimwipes to wipe down film after the photoflo. works well. Good luck.

IloveTLRs · Aug 3, 2010

2F/2F said:
Your B.S. meter appears to be in working order.

Thanks, I got a good laugh from that

Ilford's hardener can be added to their Hypam, but not to their Rapid Fixer. Hypam is effectively the same otherwise, and it is cheaper, so I don't have any idea why they even make Rapid Fixer.

This being said, I am not sure that lack of hardening is causing your problem. Modern emulsions should be perfectly fine without a hardener.

Where are the scratches (emulsion or base), and how are they oriented? How are you processing the film, and what camera are you using to expose it? Do you have the problem in all cameras and all formats you have tried?

I use Acros in a number of cameras, and the scratches are length-wise. After the final wash, Dead Link Removed. I'm pretty sure the scratches comes from it, even though I use it extra-gently with Across (I never get scratches Presto 400, Tri-X 400, Agfa, etc.) I could skip this step, but I don't want water marks on my film.

2F/2F · Aug 3, 2010

IloveTLRs said:
Thanks, I got a good laugh from that

I use Acros in a number of cameras, and the scratches are length-wise. After the final wash, Dead Link Removed. I'm pretty sure the scratches comes from it, even though I use it extra-gently with Across (I never get scratches Presto 400, Tri-X 400, Agfa, etc.) I could skip this step, but I don't want water marks on my film.

I would advise against using one of those thingies, and would guess that they are causing the scratches.

I am curious why they would only scratch Across, however.

There are always plenty of people here who say they have used them their whole lives and never had a single scratch, though......

I use Photo-Flo as directed on the bottle, hang the film, put the film between my forefinger and my middle finger, and then run down the length of it to push off the excess Photo-Flo. Never had a scratch from this method.

E76 · Aug 3, 2010

I would forget about the squeegee and just hang the negatives to dry after treating them with Photoflo. I dry my negatives this way and have no problems with scratching and very few problems with water marks. If you're having problems with water marks you may want to consider rinsing your negatives in distilled water before drying them.

IloveTLRs · Aug 3, 2010

Hmm, I'll look into Photoflo. I'm not sure if I can get it in Japan or not. I've been using Fujifilm QuickWash, which is ironically supposed to cut down on scratches.
Thanks for the advice.

mooseontheloose · Aug 3, 2010

Hmm, I'll look into Photoflo. I'm not sure if I can get it in Japan or not. I've been using Fujifilm QuickWash, which is ironically supposed to cut down on scratches.
Thanks for the advice.

There is -- although not by Kodak. Fujifilm has a photographic wetting agent called DRIWEL and I've always been able to find it in any photo store selling darkroom chemicals. Yodobashi Camera and Bic Camera will probably have it.

Acros is my go-to 100 speed film and I haven't had any problems with watermarks or scratches, but I don't use a squeegee (other than my fingers). I don't know if it's even possible to get distilled water in Japan (even my Japanese friends have no idea what I am talking about), but I've always just used bottled drinking water and driwel and hung the film up to dry and it's been fine.

Sirius Glass · Aug 3, 2010

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I've been told by fellow APUGers not to use hardener with my fix. Processing film in warm chemicals increases your chances of scratches. When I first started to soup BW film many years ago, I scratched my film my squeezing the squeegee too hard. Being gentle goes a long way in avoid scratches. I worked in a lab where they used lintless Kimwipes to wipe down film after the photoflo. works well. Good luck.

Even better DO NOT USE THE SQUEEGEE and use PhotoFlo.

I have never scratched a film during processing. Go figure.:rolleyes:

Steve

hrst · Aug 3, 2010

I always use a squeegee and don't get any significant scratches when I'm working carefully as supposed; this means washing the squeegee under running water to remove any dust or dirt particles, and then wetting the squeegee with the final rinse solution (the photo flo solution for BW and stabilizer/final rinse for color) and then gently wiping the film once. Wetting the squeegee causes a super thin layer of water to form a protective barrier that moves any dust away before the rubber blade. Surfactant (Photo Flo or final rinse solution) is needed for this phenomenon to work well. The idea is remove about 90% of water as evenly as possible. The remaining 10% protects the film from scratching even if there are some minor dirt particles attached to the blade.

I hear quite frequently on the forums that squeegee is evil and doesn't even help with drying marks, but everyone who has made a somewhat scientific side-by-side comparison themselves, say otherwise. If drying marks (minerals from water and dust from air) are a problem, squeegees can help greatly to solve it, however the minor risk of minor scratches even when working carefully is always some kind of trade-off. I can see minor scratch line on some of my negs processed this way when I scan them with Nikon Coolscan V with extremely collimated light source that reproduces every scratch and dust mark, but when I print them optically, even with condenser enlarger, there's absolutely nothing wrong in them.

So, long story short, my advice is to revise the squeegeeing protocol first, and maybe try without squeegeeing, but you don't have to abandon your squeegee completely because of some internet opinions. These wars go and go on forever .

And, although modern films are said to be well hardened, it's also said that Neopan Acros and Neopan 400 are not as much as most other products, and if you find hardening fixer solves your problem, there's nothing wrong to use it. Hardening fixers are available just for this purpose.

ZorkiKat · Aug 4, 2010

Hardener works.

You can even use a hardening stop bath if you can't add the hardener component to your fixer.

Sodium Sulphite 15 g.
Acetic Acid Glacial 15ml.
Potassium Alum 10g.
Water qs to 1 litre.

Fuji Neopans with softened emulsions may look rather translucent, instead of clear, when wet, just after fixing. Neopan which went through hardening stop and hardening fix baths look quite clear out of the fixer. (Tropical processing conditions: average ambient temps, 28C)

AgentX · Aug 4, 2010

OK, so if I'm about to start using Pyrocat HD and need an alkaline fixer, but I'm working with Efke roll or sheet film that requires hardener, at what step do I add it?

From what I read, hardener can't work in an alkaline environment like the required fixer, but you can pre-harden before development...is that OK to do with rollfilm, too? (Shouldn't use an acid stop, either, correct? So I suppose hardener in the stop bath is also a no-no...)

Any recipes for the hardener itself or sources of pre-mixed hardener?

Rick A · Aug 4, 2010

Hardening fixers aren't necessary with Pyrocat-HD, as it's a tanning developer, and hardens the emulsion on its own.

AgentX · Aug 4, 2010

Things I didn't know.

Thanks!! Makes my life much easier.

RobertV · Aug 4, 2010

I always use a squeegee and don't get any significant scratches when I'm working carefully as supposed; this means washing the squeegee under running water to remove any dust or dirt particles, and then wetting the squeegee with the final rinse solution (the photo flo solution for BW and stabilizer/final rinse for color) and then gently wiping the film once. Wetting the squeegee causes a super thin layer of water to form a protective barrier that moves any dust away before the rubber blade. Surfactant (Photo Flo or final rinse solution) is needed for this phenomenon to work well. The idea is remove about 90% of water as evenly as possible. The remaining 10% protects the film from scratching even if there are some minor dirt particles attached to the blade.

If you're going to squeegee this is the best method but for a lot of less sturdy films (Foma, Efke) it's not a good idea to squeegee at all.

In a reel development a hardener is just a waste of money and will only prolong your wash time. When doing sheet film development in a tray it can help.
For Efke films in reel development you can add a small amount (0,5-1%) Formaline to the wetting agent. The film will be reasonable be harder before you take the film out of the reel.
But take care; Formaline is nasty stuff, also used to stabilize the color couplers in C41 and E6 development.

Ian Grant · Aug 4, 2010

Like rick I use Pyrocat HD with Acros, the side effect is the tanning action of the Pyrocatechin hardens the emulsion sufficiently.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2010

The interesting thing about tanning developers is that they only tan the image areas. Unless the fog is extraordinarily high, there is no tanning in Dmin areas. Thus, scratches can take place in clear areas and turn up as artifacts in the final print.

PE

AgentX · Aug 4, 2010

Do you think it's worth adding any hardener at another point when using tanning developers, then?

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2010

If you wish to harden very soft films, use a prehardener as follows:

Sodium SulfATE 50 - 100 g/l
Formalin 37% 10 ml/l
Sodium Carbonate 25 - 50 g/l

pH range 9 - 10

Use 5 mins at 20 deg C, wash 5 mins and then process normally.

PE

Robert Budding · Aug 4, 2010

Is there an advantage to prehardening? Most of the scratching problems that I've seen during processing occur when the emulsion is wet. So why not just use a hardening fix?

Photo Engineer · Aug 4, 2010

Robert;

There apparently are some soft films out there from some companies. That alone would suggest that one use a hardener in some way in the process.

That said, what if the soft film scratches in the developer? A hardening fix is of no use. And, bone gelatin swells most in alkali and is therefore softest! So, a prehardener makes sense in some conditions.

PE

PeteZ8 · Aug 4, 2010

Do you still shoot the other films? If not, is it possible that the only reason you are getting scratches is your squeegee may have picked up some contaminants around the same time you switched films, and it just looks as if the film change is the cause of the problems.

If you're still developing the other types of film successfully then ignore everything I just said

IloveTLRs said:
Thanks, I got a good laugh from that

I use Acros in a number of cameras, and the scratches are length-wise. After the final wash, Dead Link Removed. I'm pretty sure the scratches comes from it, even though I use it extra-gently with Across (I never get scratches Presto 400, Tri-X 400, Agfa, etc.) I could skip this step, but I don't want water marks on my film.

IloveTLRs · Aug 4, 2010

PeteZ8 - Yes, I did a roll of Neopan SS last night, with no problems. I did clean off the squeegee thingy first though, whether that did anything or not, I'm not sure. If I remember correctly, Acros 135 had scratching problems (for me), but not 120. Other films I shoot are Tri-X 400, Presto 400, and sometimes TMAX 100, 400 and some Ilford Delta - none of them have been a problem.

I hadn't thought about using distilled water. I'm guessing that bottled water is okay, like Evian?

Sirius Glass · Aug 4, 2010

IloveTLRs said:
I hadn't thought about using distilled water. I'm guessing that bottled water is okay, like Evian?

Bottled drinking water has mineral added. That is a good way to get drying spots and contaminates on the film.

Steve

mooseontheloose · Aug 4, 2010

Bottled drinking water has mineral added. That is a good way to get drying spots and contaminates on the film.

So would regular tap water be better? IloveTLRs and I both live in Japan, and I have never seen distilled water here (which is what I used while living in Canada and France), although I'll be the first to admit it may be available somewhere in this country, just not in the places that I've looked (supermarkets, drug stores, hardware stores).

As I mentioned earlier, I have used regular bottled water here with photoflo (or more specifically, driwel) with no problems for drying spots.

Film hardener?

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