Film Grain

thisismyname09 · Mar 22, 2009

Currently I use kodak tri-x film, but i tend to get alot of obnoxious grain (at least on 35mm). Is there anything I can do to reduce it and/or what film tends to have the least visible grain? Preferably something available on both 35mm and 120/220.

Anon Ymous · Mar 22, 2009

Well, TriX is not a fine grain film, that's a fact. That's one variable. The other variable is the developer you use. You didn't tell us something about it. While the the film itself is the major factor, developer and dilution also affects the grain you'll get. One more thing that can affect the size of grain is the temperature of the final wash and differences between the temperature of the various chemicals you use. You'd better keep differences at a minimum. If your process is "correct", then using something like Tmax or Delta is the way to go.

So, tell us a bit more about your process...

thisismyname09 · Mar 22, 2009

I use D-76 developer, diluted 1:1::developer:water. I make sure the water temperature is constantly at 75 degrees(F), although my developer and fixer are probably at room temperature, which would be ~5 degrees less.

Anon Ymous · Mar 22, 2009

In that case, you're a grainophobe sir
70 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit shouldn't matter much. If that's obnoxious, then try modern emulsions, or slower films.

Ed Sukach · Mar 22, 2009

There are a number of so called "fine grain" developers available. Every one that I know of is, in a sense, a "cheat". The grain is characteristic of the FILM - it can be made to appear less well defined by blurring the grain edges ... at the inevitable expense of acutance (read: sharpness). Personally, I'd rather have a sharp, well defined, CLEAN grain.

Demonizing grain was a pleasant recreational pastime for the manufacturers of miracle developers in the past ... these were supposed to decrease - eliminate grain altogether, while increasing film speeds to astronomical numbers. Generally, they WORKED - but at the expense of tonal scale, definition and overall appearance. SEVERE expense.

If you do not like D-76 try something else. T-Max has been suggested - I personally do not favor T-Max (seems "harsh" to me) but many LOVE it; there is a wi=de selection available (I left the Freudian slip).
I would suggest, though, that you do not concentrate on any one characterstic - such as grain - it is FAR better to evaluate the results by overall appearance.

jim appleyard · Mar 22, 2009

Use a slower film, a t-grain emulsion (Ilford's Delta or Kodak's T-Max) , a fine grain film dev., an undiluted film dev., (D-76, 1+0 will give finer grain than 1+1, or move to a larger format.

Neal · Mar 22, 2009

Dear thisismyname09,

Try Xtol undiluted. You should see notably smoother images.

Neal Wydra

Keith Tapscott. · Mar 22, 2009

thisismyname09 said:
I use D-76 developer, diluted 1:1::developer:water. I make sure the water temperature is constantly at 75 degrees(F), although my developer and fixer are probably at room temperature, which would be ~5 degrees less.

The development times are usually given for 20*C (68*F), did you reduce the time slightly to compensate for the higher temperature? Also, what ISO did you rate the film at?

Bruce Watson · Mar 22, 2009

thisismyname09 said:
Currently I use Kodak Tri-X film, but I tend to get a lot of obnoxious grain (at least on 35mm). Is there anything I can do to reduce it and/or what film tends to have the least visible grain? Preferably something available on both 35mm and 120/220.

First thing to do is move to 400Tmax (aka TMY-2). Then move from D76 to XTOL. Undiluted will give you smaller grain. As you dilute it more you'll get increased sharpness in exchange for more graininess. But these differences are fairly small. These two changes will give you a big change in graininess IMHO.

Next thing to do is hone your exposure and processing. If graininess is your thing, you want to make sure you have negatives that are just barely dense enough to print well, and no more. Graininess is directly related to density, so less density means less graininess. This kind of honing of exposure and processing is covered well in the dozens (hundreds?) of books on the Zone System and its variants.

If these changes aren't enough for you, you'll have to give up some film speed. Your next best bet is 100Tmax.

If that's not enough for you, you'll have to move up in format. Moving to 5x4 is a huge change, but you'll never have to deal with graininess again. A 10x enlargement is 50x40 inches after all, and prints I've made that size from 5x4 are nearly grainless. From Tri-X no less.

Anscojohn · Mar 22, 2009

09,
With all MQ developers like D76, "grain" is a function of the amount of development, all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are). That being said, you might consider underdeveloping slightly. In addition, the old lab rats would always add a little bit of used developer to the fresh soup "to soften up the grain." If you use a replenisher with your D76, the "grain" will become less apparent as colloidal silver in the used developer coats the image.
A friend who was an army photographer said that it was drummed into them to keep all film wet times to a minimum for the best "grain." And, as others have said, keep your temps close and constant, as well.

dfoo · Mar 22, 2009

With good exposure and XTOL 1+1 (or undiluted) I find Tri-X to be pretty grain-free on an 8x10 printed from a condenser enlarger.

IloveTLRs · Mar 22, 2009

If you don't mind trying a different film/developer combination, you could try Fuji Acros 100 and Super-Prodol, or TMAX 100 and TMAX developer. Both of those combinations have given me silky-smooth photos in the past.

waileong · Mar 26, 2009

3X has lovely grain. One should learn to appreciate it. But notwithstanding that, correct exposure is also a very important factor in minimising grain.

nickandre · Mar 26, 2009

Shoot Adox CMS 20. No grain.

Sirius Glass · Mar 26, 2009

Neal said:
Dear thisismyname09,

Try Xtol undiluted. You should see notably smoother images.

Neal Wydra

What he said.

Steve

Sirius Glass · Mar 26, 2009

dfoo said:
With good exposure and XTOL 1+1 (or undiluted) I find Tri-X to be pretty grain-free on an 8x10 printed from a condenser enlarger.

What he said, too.

Steve

BetterSense · Mar 26, 2009

Complaining about Trix being grainy seems kind of like complaining about Harley-Davidsons being loud.

Anscojohn · Mar 27, 2009

BetterSense said:
Complaining about Trix being grainy seems kind of like complaining about Harley-Davidsons being loud.

***************

2F/2F · Mar 27, 2009

Tri-X should not have what most people would call "obnoxious grain" unless it has been poorly exposed and/or beaten up during processing (or blown up a lot, obviously). Overexposure is the number one culprit in making a horribly grainy image in my experience. In fact, when I want to increase the appearance of grain, overexposing is the first and most important step. Another thing that causes a lot of grain to show up is when you "print up" an underexposed negative by reducing density on the print and adding contrast. Number three culprit: processing. Overdevelopment, too much agitation, agitation that is too harsh, etc. Number four: pictures that are not really sharp to begin with. This gives you nothing *but* grain to focus on. The worst *accidental* grain I have ever seen is from extremely overexposed, low contrast, out of focus negatives that never should have been printed in the first place being not only printed, but done so much too large.

When you print your contact sheets so that the sprocket holes are just barely visible using a number 2 filter (or a grade two paper), what do your pix look like? Light, good, or dark? Contrasty, good, or flat?

By what factor are you enlarging your 1x1.5 inch negs?

Changing film/developer is not anywhere near the first thing that comes to mind as a suggestion. You may like another film better, but developers will matter very little, and you should be able to get Tri-X to look perfectly fine with what you are using. Also, by doing this, you will learn better quality exposure and development that you can use to get great results with any film.

thisismyname09 · Mar 27, 2009

I don't think its my developing thats the problem. I'm anal about keeping the water the right temperature and agitating an exact number of times for exact amounts of times. I do have a tendancy to use high contrast when I print onto paper, though.

Regardless, I think i'm going to try some new film, just out of curiousity. All I've ever used was Tri-X.

IloveTLRs · Mar 27, 2009

Fuji Presto (Neopan 400) is pretty smooth, especially in Super-Prodol.

There are no bad B&W films out there, so have fun trying them all

thisismyname09 · Mar 27, 2009

I was thinking of trying some of the medium/slow speed ilford films, like fp4+ or hp5+

drazak · Mar 27, 2009

I hope you meant panf+ and not hp5+, as hp5+ will have the same grain as tx.

Ben

AgX · Mar 28, 2009

The finest grain film film availible both in 135 and 120 is Rollei ATP.

Film Grain

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