Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

Roger Cole · Oct 5, 2014

Still RMS 13 is pretty damned grainy. Provia 400X comes in at 11 and while it's GREAT for a 400 film, and would be acceptable to me in a new 100 film that had other characteristics I liked, I wouldn't want a lot more grain in a 100 film.

pentaxuser · Oct 5, 2014

Xmas, as I said " if I were a slide film user" which I am not. However someone raised what I thought was a relevant question of granularity difference between Ferrania and Fuji and it just seemed to me that for the market as a whole, used to a certain standard, the old economic adage of " the good driving out the bad" will hold good.

There are of course those who will back Ferrania with their money even if Ferrania's granularity doesn't match Fuji immediately and may continue to back Ferrania even if it never matches Fuji but I was simply questioning whether the size of such a group of buyers is ever going to be enough.

I haven't counted how many on this thread have declared their commitment to buy Ferrania but I doubt if it is enough to sustain production.

The future for slide film, I would have thought, has to be dependent on the silent minority who have not made their feelings for Ferrania known and who may not even belong to APUG but who as normal consumers may not be loyal to a new company whose product doesn't very quickly catch up with existing slide film producers.

pentaxuser

railwayman3 · Oct 5, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
But instead of just simply sitting on the sidelines and pissing and moaning about the end of E-6, they are actually trying to do something about it. For all of us. And that effort in itself, regardless of the final outcome, is worthy of praise and encouragement. And in my book a few dollars of support.

Ken

Agreed, entirely. I've pledged a middle-of-the-road amount which I won't miss from my photo budget; if it works it works, if it fails, they've tried.

Those who want to criticise and look for problems with no real knowledge of film technology or business economics don't have to contribute or to buy any film which may be eventually produced by Ferrania, certainly if they perceive it as being inferior without trying it. There's always Fujichrome.....just as there was "always" Kodachrome and Ektachrome ten years ago.

StoneNYC · Oct 5, 2014

I know this isn't going to be the most popular statement, but I think that actually for now at least, what FF should be aiming for is actually more of an "old-school" color palette anyway, they're not going to be able to compete with Fujichrome film, it's just too good, what they need to do is give some kind of different look to the film, something that would make people want to buy it over the Fuji film, and that's not going to be trying to make it look like Fujifilm, nor is it going to be by making it look like Kodak, they need to have a different color palette that harkens back to the days of yore, something probably similar to what Ken is used to shooting back in the day in the 70s that is. This is definitely a lomo look, which is why I said it probably isn't going to be the most popular opinion, but I think that in order to compete they are going to have to do something similar to what TIP is doing, and in order to do that they're going to have to do something different than what exists currently.

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 5, 2014

railwayman3 said:
There's always Fujichrome.....just as there was "always" Kodachrome and Ektachrome ten years ago.

And therein lies the bottom line hard truth...

Ken

rbultman · Oct 5, 2014

What these guys are doing takes a lot of guts. If they can truly right size their production operation, maybe they can make film under contract for Kodak...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Oct 5, 2014

rbultman said:
What these guys are doing takes a lot of guts. If they can truly right size their production operation, maybe they can make film under contract for Kodak...

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

You're dreaming if you think kodak would make that deal.

MAYBE Eastman, but not KA

Nzoomed · Oct 5, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Still RMS 13 is pretty damned grainy. Provia 400X comes in at 11 and while it's GREAT for a 400 film, and would be acceptable to me in a new 100 film that had other characteristics I liked, I wouldn't want a lot more grain in a 100 film.

And i expect that Provia 400X is alot grainer than provia 100F!

I am lost at what to believe in the datasheet, it says that its a very fine grained film, but in the specs it says its RMS 13.
Anyway, if the shots taken with the stuff that ive seen on Flickr are anything to go by, i cant see any noticeable grain at all.

Certainly not as grainy as the Agfa stock that Wittner is using.

StoneNYC said:
I know this isn't going to be the most popular statement, but I think that actually for now at least, what FF should be aiming for is actually more of an "old-school" color palette anyway, they're not going to be able to compete with Fujichrome film, it's just too good, what they need to do is give some kind of different look to the film, something that would make people want to buy it over the Fuji film, and that's not going to be trying to make it look like Fujifilm, nor is it going to be by making it look like Kodak, they need to have a different color palette that harkens back to the days of yore, something probably similar to what Ken is used to shooting back in the day in the 70s that is. This is definitely a lomo look, which is why I said it probably isn't going to be the most popular opinion, but I think that in order to compete they are going to have to do something similar to what TIP is doing, and in order to do that they're going to have to do something different than what exists currently.

I actually do agree with you, and i dont think they will have to do much to achieve it, the sample shots ive seen appear vintage enough for me, but if they want to go further and make a film that delivers results similar to kodachrome, or other vintage colour films, i say good on them!
Fuji is too perfect, almost sterile, theres nothing wrong with that, and if Ferrania eventually offer a range of such films that wouldnt bother me.

Grain doesnt bother me either if its not too overpowering, but the main reason i want to shoot film is to give photos that vintage look, as if they were shot in the 60's or 70's

Even with Kodak Ektachrome the shots can look vintage enough for my liking, as an example i shot this only in 2014 at a vintage car club event. Unless you saw a modern car in the photo, most people would assume it was taken in the early 60's. This was taken on elitechrome 100 which is basically e100g.

cmacd123 · Oct 5, 2014

Well, back to 1996 anyway. If you look at the scotch chrome data sheet that they have up at Dead Link Removed you will find it is dated Sept '96.

Now we have been spoiled by a tech war over the last 15 years or so. Kodak and Fuji were having a "Space Race" in Motion Picture film. In Kodaks case EXR became Vison 1, then Vison 2 and now Vison 3 at about 2 year intervals. With Fuji bumping their versions almost as fast in the Eterna line. The switch to digital projection severaly cut the volume of Print stock, which was probably both Financing and incentivizing that war, as their is a tendancy for producers to specify Fuji print stock if most of a production was shot on Fuji Negative, and likwise to specify Kodak if Kodak Negative was used. Without that incentive, Eterna is no longer eternal.

As still Photographers we have benifited by the migration of all the fancy technology, like extra colour layers, DIR couplers and so on, applied to both the colour negative and colour transparency films we have gotten used to using.

What Ferrannia is going to be offering is a film designed before the movie wars. I am sure that there engineering staff has kept up with all this new technology, and probably has a "wish list" of patent expiry dates BUT they do need to get the system working using something that they have made so many times before they could probably almost do it in the sleep.

AgX · Oct 5, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Those of us shooting transparency for projection can tolerate a bit more graininess than if we intended to scan and print. If prints are the desired final product, I'll shoot C41.

I do not see the point behind this: in both cases one could come across the same visual enlargement.

(Except for those cases one puts his nose against a mural, what one likely would not do at a screen...)

Ricardo Miranda · Oct 5, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
My statements were intended to be realistic comments about a product (or series of products) that are due to be in customer hands by the end of Dec. You will be paying for the evaluations if they have not been done already. Kind of like TIP.

And nothing bad is meant here. These are neutral comments as I have no information other than what you all have!

PE

Film Ferrania are aiming for an April 2015 delivery. The timetable is on the Kickstarter page.

Xmas · Oct 5, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
If they can actually make it to market with THAT, I'll be doing backflips. Make no mistake, the odds are still heavily against this attempt coming to full fruition. There probably aren't enough zeros on the calculator to keep track of all of the obstacles they face.

But instead of just simply sitting on the sidelines and pissing and moaning about the end of E-6, they are actually trying to do something about it. For all of us. And that effort in itself, regardless of the final outcome, is worthy of praise and encouragement. And in my book a few dollars of support.

Ken

HiKen

That is the plan, hope your back flips are on mat.
The problem is a second one (film type) would be more difficult ie more work.
If they don't get volume sales... then no revenue for second one, as it would steal sales from 1st.
After we hold the wake for Fuji and Kodak volume for third parties won't necessarily jump pro rata... just as likely to contract.
eg when Kodachrome 25 was cancelled I went to Fuji Cause I did not like the 64 colours.

Noel

Xmas · Oct 5, 2014

Nzoomed said:
And i expect that Provia 400X is alot grainer than provia 100F!

I am lost at what to believe in the datasheet, it says that its a very fine grained film, but in the specs it says its RMS 13.
Anyway, if the shots taken with the stuff that ive seen on Flickr are anything to go by, i cant see any noticeable grain at all.

Certainly not as grainy as the Agfa stock that Wittner is using.

I actually do agree with you, and i dont think they will have to do much to achieve it, the sample shots ive seen appear vintage enough for me, but if they want to go further and make a film that delivers results similar to kodachrome, or other vintage colour films, i say good on them!
Fuji is too perfect, almost sterile, theres nothing wrong with that, and if Ferrania eventually offer a range of such films that wouldnt bother me.

Grain doesnt bother me either if its not too overpowering, but the main reason i want to shoot film is to give photos that vintage look, as if they were shot in the 60's or 70's

Even with Kodak Ektachrome the shots can look vintage enough for my liking, as an example i shot this only in 2014 at a vintage car club event. Unless you saw a modern car in the photo, most people would assume it was taken in the early 60's. This was taken on elitechrome 100 which is basically e100g.

Regret to advise all they are trying to do is to reproduce the last film they made before they stopped.

I thought it was reasonable in 07 but picked Velvia for colour - a subjective thing.

There is not the volume to support film development like cine allowed that has gone.

The future is one E6 film type or two or none.

Nzoomed · Oct 5, 2014

Xmas said:
Regret to advise all they are trying to do is to reproduce the last film they made before they stopped.

I thought it was reasonable in 07 but picked Velvia for colour - a subjective thing.

There is not the volume to support film development like cine allowed that has gone.

The future is one E6 film type or two or none.

Well it wouldn't worry me too much if they only did have one E6 film, but they claim they want to make higher speed films, and probably will introduce finer grained ones if they are serious about cine use.

The vintage look and colours are what im after anyway, not accuracy or perfection, which in that case i would use something like provia or my remaining stock of Ektachrome. The beauty was that when there was a range of films you could choose what to shoot, alot of people used both Kodak and Fuji depending on what effect they were after, but nowdays we only really have one major player in E6 and they only will be left with two different E6 films before long. I hope that the AGFA stock remains available for some time and hopefully we can see some level of competition once more in the colour film market. Fuji doesnt offer what Film Ferrania is going to provide, they are too much in the professional/high end of the market, im not saying that Ferrania should not do this, but its quite obvious they are targeting a different market.

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2014

Ricardo Miranda said:
Film Ferrania are aiming for an April 2015 delivery. The timetable is on the Kickstarter page.

The thread is titled "Ferrania starting production 2014" and I am taking my thesis from there. They have to have sufficient stocks of GOOD film by the end of this year to fill a decent pipeline and also sample some of it to editors and big customers. Then, if problems are found, they remake a good coating and refill the pipeline so that things being moving by April.

I'm not just making this up. BTDT. I am of the opinion that they must have a good, salable coating by January 2015!

And, as we blather on here, the market for E6 products is shrinking. What happens if the volume falls below some projected sustainable level for Ferrania?

PE

Sal Santamaura · Oct 5, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
...the market for E6 products is shrinking. What happens if the volume falls below some projected sustainable level for Ferrania?...

The same thing that will happen when it falls below sustainable levels for Fuji and Kodak (including Kodak's "Hollywood subsidy"). In other words, no more Ferrania color film.

Despite the raging start to Ferrania's Kickstarter campaign, I'm still not convinced there's a business case for long term production of color film. However, I think there's one way it might work. Rather than start off with an ISO 100 E-6 emulsion and then add other speeds and/or color negative, stick with that single reversal film, incorporating running improvements whenever possible. Then develop and market one, and only one, additional product. A modern color reversal paper. Wet prints from the transparencies must be as straightforward for home darkroom users as are black and white prints from black and white negatives.

If they could pull that off, I suspect Ferrania might become as stable and successful with color as HARMAN has with black and white.

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2014

Sal, I think I could agree with that except for knowing how hard it is to make a reversal color paper with no previous formulas or experience, and AFAIK FF never did do that. It might be very hard. IDK.

PE

StoneNYC · Oct 5, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Sal, I think I could agree with that except for knowing how hard it is to make a reversal color paper with no previous formulas or experience, and AFAIK FF never did do that. It might be very hard. IDK.

PE

So... Why can't YOU work for FF? Is it because you would have to move to Italy? Or because you're locked to Kodak and can't legally do it?

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2014

Stone, perhaps you remember the thread asking where I have been? I just spent about 2 weeks in the hospital and am now in my 3rd week of therapy to walk so I will be up and around for 2 workshops at GEH.

I hate to bring this up here, but your comments verge on being impolite as you know about the other thread. In addition, they have not asked me, and I have no reversal color paper experience beyond the rudiments of structure and curve shape. So, why don't you do it?

PE

Prof_Pixel · Oct 5, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Sal, I think I could agree with that except for knowing how hard it is to make a reversal color paper with no previous formulas or experience, and AFAIK FF never did do that. It might be very hard. IDK.

PE

Ron,

Maybe they could make something like Ansco Printon

StoneNYC · Oct 5, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Stone, perhaps you remember the thread asking where I have been? I just spent about 2 weeks in the hospital and am now in my 3rd week of therapy to walk so I will be up and around for 2 workshops at GEH.

I hate to bring this up here, but your comments verge on being impolite as you know about the other thread. In addition, they have not asked me, and I have no reversal color paper experience beyond the rudiments of structure and curve shape. So, why don't you do it?

PE

Ron,

I had no idea how bad it was, I only followed the thread long enough to know you were ok.

I had no idea you were not walking, my apologies. I did not realize it was so severe.

I don't know your knowledge base but based on your comments I thought you were well versed in E-6 and K-14 more than C-41.

I don't know everything about you just that I often see you post boatloads of knowledge about the inner workings of film. I was not at ALL trying to be rude. I truly beg your pardon for my poorly spoken words.

ME Super · Oct 5, 2014

If you look at Film Ferrania's timeline, near the bottom of their Kickstarter page, test coating and moving equipment to storage is to happen in Nov/Dec. 2014. Production of the first batch is to happen in Jan/Feb 2015, with cutting and spooling happening in Feb/Mar 2015, and shipping the film rewards in early April 2015.

There is 1 50-speed E-6 emulsion made by Fuji, and two 100 speed E-6 emulsions made by Fuji. There's still stock of the one 200-speed E-6 emulsion made by Agfa, and that is all. When Kodak decided E-6 was no longer profitable, they left the market. Fuji will do likewise, though I suspect Fuji did get a bump in sales when Kodak stocks ran out. What Ferrania is trying to do, and I commend them for it, is to build a factory that is the right size for the market, and that can be adapted to some degree if their share of the market grows (which I also suspect it will do at the point in time that Fuji exits the market). This will likely leave Film Ferrania with 100% share of the market. Hopefully at that point there are enough of us E-6 shooters left to keep at least one right-sized film maker making it.

Ricardo Miranda · Oct 5, 2014

Dear Ron

I don't believe FF have "editors and big customers" to please. These have gone digital or disappeared altogether.

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
Ron,

Maybe they could make something like Ansco Printon

I'm sure that they could, but I don't know any of the details and so I would be of no help.

They have reassured us that their team is well versed in system design and so I have left them to their devices.

PE

Photo Engineer · Oct 5, 2014

Ricardo Miranda said:
Dear Ron

I don't believe FF have "editors and big customers" to please. These have gone digital or disappeared altogether.

All things are relative. There are still interested editors out there, I am sure, for something like this, and big customers today exist, but the degree of "bigness" is on a different scale.

Besides, from my experience, what happens if the first "big" run is total crap. BTDT.

And a note for Stone again, my experience in product building is Neg-Pos or C41 and EP2/3. I did not work on reversal products except for contributing a color developing agent for K14 (CD6).

PE

Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

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