Film emulsions evolutionary development, and how that translated for the photographer and printer

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It has always been a given for someone who grew up in the 21st century, knowing the accepted limits of what to expect from a photographic emulsion.
Films technical refinement hasn't reached new heights in decades now, and there are different flavours for different shooters, whether that be conventional cubic emulsions or tabular grain films for example. and we also know exactly what QC and consistencies to expect from mainstream manufacturers too.
But something I've often wondered is, how has this changed over time? Especially during the early years when emulsions being coated onto "film" was a new concept in of itself. And ultimately how that translated for the shooter and processor.
Because no matter how good the camera was, the core limitation largely comes down to the film itself.
Over time I have heard about early emulsions, most recently for me was learning what the first emulsions kodak sold in 35mm were. It seems unbelievable to me that b&w stocks topped out around 50 iso, and given names such as "super sensitive". Even kodachrome was a mere 10 iso originally.
So, were these films that were once considered the best of the best that great by modern film standards?
Were they more delicate to handle? curl like buggery when drying? handle over and under exposure like modern stocks? entertain a level of sharpness and grain remotely comparable to now?
What was QC like? how did things evolve during and after major world events like both world wars? and when did evolution taper off to where we are today?
 

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were these films that were once considered the best of the best that great by modern film standards?

No, they were abysmal by today's objective standards. Decades of R&D actually did have a purpose.

Were they more delicate to handle?

Yes.
curl like buggery when drying?

And reticulate like mad if you dared to subject them to even modest temperature gradients, or somewhat longish wet times.

handle over and under exposure like modern stocks?

Not even close.

entertain a level of sharpness and grain remotely comparable to now?
Again, not even close.

What was QC like?
Again, atrocious if you apply today's Kodak standards to it.

how did things evolve during and after major world events like both world wars?
That's too big a question for a single PhD thesis.

and when did evolution taper off to where we are today?
Simply put, around 2003 when the world of analog photography collapsed. Arguably, in the 1980s things started to slow down already due to the technology maturing and marginal returns on R&D investment sloping off. This was visible in the industry structure and the shakedown in which several big (at that point) names were lost in time.
 

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Regarding the question about the World War, and limiting it to Japan, a while back I added some information to the Fuji Neopan Wikipedia article by translating some Japanese-text history.

Fujifilm in the 30s was just figuring out how to make their B&W films sensitive enough to the full spectrum. The small format film required manual loading into 35mm cassettes. These were slow speed films around ISO 40. Mostly people were using roll film for a variety of reasons including the films and camera lenses lower resolution and for ease of printing.

It wasn't until the mid 50s that they started coming out with more modern, faster films, up to ISO 200. In the 1940s during the height of the war and the subsequent reconstruction, they made very little improvement to the films.

On the other side of the water, the winners of this war, Kodak, seemed to be about 10 years ahead in technology, until Japan's boom of the 80s.
 
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No, they were abysmal by today's objective standards. Decades of R&D actually did have a purpose.

And reticulate like mad if you dared to subject them to even modest temperature gradients, or somewhat longish wet times.
Could you expand upon this?
What were the most pivotal changes over the years?
I find it interesting that Kodak introduced film specifically called Non curling and yet it clearly was a problem that plagued film for a lot longer, arguably even today.
Again, atrocious if you apply today's Kodak standards to it.
And yet Kodak's standards are lower today than they were 20 years ago. Though for very different reasons.
Simply put, around 2003 when the world of analog photography collapsed. Arguably, in the 1980s things started to slow down already due to the technology maturing and marginal returns on R&D investment sloping off. This was visible in the industry structure and the shakedown in which several big (at that point) names were lost in time.
That makes sense. Certainly for conventional processes. I have heard about Kodak CI and their plan to revolutionise film but it was too little too late.
 

koraks

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What were the most pivotal changes over the years?
Too many to list and I'm not a film historian. Perhaps someone else is inclined to respond.

Film curl is indeed a problem especially on 120. It's inherent to a thin assembly of materials that have different ways of responding to temperature and humidity changes.
 
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Regarding the question about the World War, and limiting it to Japan, a while back I added some information to the Fuji Neopan Wikipedia article by translating some Japanese-text history.

Fujifilm in the 30s was just figuring out how to make their B&W films sensitive enough to the full spectrum. The small format film required manual loading into 35mm cassettes. These were slow speed films around ISO 40. Mostly people were using roll film for a variety of reasons including the films and camera lenses lower resolution and for ease of printing.

It wasn't until the mid 50s that they started coming out with more modern, faster films, up to ISO 200. In the 1940s during the height of the war and the subsequent reconstruction, they made very little improvement to the films.

On the other side of the water, the winners of this war, Kodak, seemed to be about 10 years ahead in technology, until Japan's boom of the 80s.

Thanks for your addition! I suppose yes panchromatic emulsions were quite new in the 30's and 40 iso or so was still quite typical from my understanding.

But also Fuji being set back is no surprise. Did you know Fuji once made a competitor to Kodachrome? Good luck trying to find info on that but it's interesting to note.

I imagine Kodak was also helped by gaining information from agfa after the war on what they had developed in the world of chromogenic colour films incorporating couplers in the emulsion. Who knows if b&W film technology was stolen from agfa too to Kodak's advantage.

I wonder if any control tests of any emulsions of the time exist, to extrapolate h&d curves or any interesting characteristics in general.
Did labs run control strips in the 40's?
When did film datasheets become normal?
 

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Did you know Fuji once made a competitor to Kodachrome?

Nope, Kodachrome was unique. Fuji's positive/'chrome' films only rose to prominence in the 1990s. I think they've only ever done E6. If you're interested in what happened on the color positive front in addition to Kodak, the interesting stuff is all around Agfa and to an extent, Ansco (Anscochrome).
 

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There must have been photo engineering notes made at the time, the challenge would be finding any that still exist after most people involved have passed away, companies moved buildings, natural and human disaster, etc...

Advanced searches on Flickr can give you something of a taste, for example this one limited to photos with dates in the 30s and the keyword Leica in order to observe 35mm film grain. To me, the grain of the slow films of that time looks roughly like 400 speed film grain today. I see images with enough latitude to record detail in both the shadows and highlights on a sunny day. The overall detail is lower but we don't know how much of this is due to the quality of the scan or any prior image processing steps.

 

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FWIW, the ASA (not ISO) 10 films like Kodachrome would have been rated as ISO 20 now - the ASA speed standard was changed in 1961 to take out the no longer needed extra margin for error.
And as for Eastman Kodak's current standards, they exceed the earlier standards, but the reality of the distribution and marketing world means that for still films, the product has to deal with a wider range of conditions.
The motion picture film isn't faced with quite the same challenges, and relatively speaking, is superb.
There were other competing attempts to create Kodachrome like films - Agfa comes to mind - but as the existence of Kodachrome was so closely intertwined with its use as movie film, there were never any equally successful alternatives. Once home movies on film declined, Kodachrome could not survive.
One of the challenges that Eastman Kodak had around the time that the market precipitously declined was that their early efforts at automating and computerizing QC meant that they had in place a number of systems that had been cutting edge, but had become out of date and needed replacement.
I started using Kodak film in the 1960s, and I started using it extensively in the 1970s.
Modern film is definitely advanced compared to the stuff I used in the 1970s, but the 1970s will was robust, and gave excellent results
 

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In the past 30 years all the previous generation of (low iodide?) films such as Efke, Panatomic X, Plus X, Agfa APX 100 have been discontinued. Some liked them because it took a certain skill to get sharp results. More recently the last of the microfilms (made by Agfa) has been discontinued and with it the possibility to get best resolution of fine detail. Modern film thus no longer includes these two possibilities, except maybe from ebay or respooled old film.
 
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It has always been a given for someone who grew up in the 21st century, knowing the accepted limits of what to expect from a photographic emulsion.
Films technical refinement hasn't reached new heights in decades now, and there are different flavours for different shooters, whether that be conventional cubic emulsions or tabular grain films for example. and we also know exactly what QC and consistencies to expect from mainstream manufacturers too.
But something I've often wondered is, how has this changed over time? Especially during the early years when emulsions being coated onto "film" was a new concept in of itself. And ultimately how that translated for the shooter and processor.
Because no matter how good the camera was, the core limitation largely comes down to the film itself.
Over time I have heard about early emulsions, most recently for me was learning what the first emulsions kodak sold in 35mm were. It seems unbelievable to me that b&w stocks topped out around 50 iso, and given names such as "super sensitive". Even kodachrome was a mere 10 iso originally.
So, were these films that were once considered the best of the best that great by modern film standards?
Were they more delicate to handle? curl like buggery when drying? handle over and under exposure like modern stocks? entertain a level of sharpness and grain remotely comparable to now?
What was QC like? how did things evolve during and after major world events like both world wars? and when did evolution taper off to where we are today?

I`m really not an expert on this and i only know some details, but as i`m also interested in movie cameras a little i can give you some fragments:

Basically everything was worse. The more you go back in time the harder it was to take a good picture. Speed was lower, grain was bigger, spectral sensitivity was orthochromatic or even less, developers were more toxic, emulsions did not have as long expiry date and were more prone to storage conditions before development.

When the movie camera was invented in about 1895, a big problem was that a movie camera running at 8fps (more or less standard speed at the beginning of cinema) had an exposure time of about 1/16 of a second.
This was too short exposure time for a lot of current emulsions, so they had to increase speed of the emulsion somehow - resulting in the emulsion not even being orthochromatic but blue-sensitive for the most. Actors having red lips, normal red cheeks or just a slight sunburn would have dark grey or even black faces on the screen. So they powdered the entire face white - and then used blue lipstick and makeup to get the eyebrows back etc. .
When people today see an early movie they sometimes think that there had been a strange fashion of make-up these days, but actually it needed to be done because of early movie film being blue-sensitive for the most.
There were entire make-up sets, containing different shades of blue lipstick, powder etc. and manuals how to makeup an actors face when using blue-sensitive film stock.
This had to continue until panchromatic film got standard, because orthochromatic film isn`t sensitive to red, so red lips will render deep black and reddish cheeks will render dark grey - and a slight sunburn, well, will make you look like an african. I once used orthochromatic movie film and when i saw myself, i had a slight sunburn, it was hilarious because i looked like i had natural black skin.
I don`t want to offend anybody or get into politics, but sometimes i wonder whether black actors also were rejected in the early days because it would have been impossible to film their true skin color. Sometimes, in an early movie there is a black actor having a minor part and often you cannot really recognize the face. You can see the white of the eyes and of the teeth, but everything else is deep black. To get this on early movie film you also had to powder the entire face white, and then use an appropriate blue-tone powder to get the face darker - but not too dark to loose the countenance of the face, but not too bright having the face look like a white actor. Tonal range of early films was smaller, making it really hard to get this right.

Afaik because of this the 35mm still camera was invented.

It does take perforated 35mm film, just like a movie camera, and was used for test shots. You put some of the movie film into the still camera and take some pictures of the setting, to check for the lighting and tonal range, probably also of the actors to check how their blue makeup would render on the screen - but probably also to test the emulsion itself because there was much bigger inconsistency in film production. The box of the film maybe said 10ISO, but actually this roll had like 5 or maybe 13ISO, tonal range and base fog may differ, also depending on how old it was or how it was stored and shipped. Too warm, too damp or too aged - and speed was reduced, more base fog etc. .
Also you had to develop soon. Today you can develop half a year or even a year after exposure without loosing the image on the negative or suffering speed-loss or base fog, back then you should develop within a few days. Current Kodak Vision 3 500T still says in the manual that you should develop as soon as possible after exposure - as 500T is a pretty high speed color film - back then a slow B&W film was about as sensitive to storage conditions and point of development as a high speed color film today, or even worse.
Also you had to pay more attention to what (chemical) fumes the emulsion was exhibited to. I once had an old book about photography from about 1905 - where they still were using glass plates and wooden plate holders. There was advice on how to restore a used wooden holder - and it adviced to only use a certain special paint, which chemicals would interact less with the emulsion on the glass plate - and it adviced to let the fresh painted holder rest open for several weeks or even months (!) to let the chemicals of the paint evaporate, so it wouldn`t damage the properties of the emulsion on the glass plate when inside the holder for a few hours only sometimes. And develop as soon as possible after exposure.

So, there were a lot of problems and a lot of improvements.
Today improvements probably have slowed down, but Kodak for example still is improving. Their Kodak Vision line started maybe in the late 90s, then got improved to Kodak Vision 2 and then to Kodak Vision 3. Grain got smaller, colors got more natural etc. .
So still there is improvement, probably also because it is easier to improve an emulsion by using computers for calculations and so on. Environmental laws led to ban of certain toxic raw chemicals, manufacturers had to alter some of their emulsions because of this anyway, but quality of films did not really suffer with every manufacturer and type of film.
Some films even got better - while becoming more environmental friendly. This could bee seen as the actual evolution of film.
 
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FWIW, the ASA (not ISO) 10 films like Kodachrome would have been rated as ISO 20 now - the ASA speed standard was changed in 1961 to take out the no longer needed extra margin for error.
And as for Eastman Kodak's current standards, they exceed the earlier standards, but the reality of the distribution and marketing world means that for still films, the product has to deal with a wider range of conditions.
The motion picture film isn't faced with quite the same challenges, and relatively speaking, is superb.
There were other competing attempts to create Kodachrome like films - Agfa comes to mind - but as the existence of Kodachrome was so closely intertwined with its use as movie film, there were never any equally successful alternatives. Once home movies on film declined, Kodachrome could not survive.
One of the challenges that Eastman Kodak had around the time that the market precipitously declined was that their early efforts at automating and computerizing QC meant that they had in place a number of systems that had been cutting edge, but had become out of date and needed replacement.
I started using Kodak film in the 1960s, and I started using it extensively in the 1970s.
Modern film is definitely advanced compared to the stuff I used in the 1970s, but the 1970s will was robust, and gave excellent results

From what I understand the speed change only applied to b&W emulsions. And probably only amateur ones at that.
Certainly a reversal stock like Kodachrome wouldn't take a full stop over.

I imagine b&W by the '70's would've been rather good. Obviously predating modern technology but latent image retention, dynamic and tonal response and consistencies would've been rather good by then I'd think.

Colour would've been a very different story beyond well established processes which really only was Kodachrome.
It would be very interesting to be able to compare early kodacolors performance to portra for example just for the hell of it.
 
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In the past 30 years all the previous generation of (low iodide?) films such as Efke, Panatomic X, Plus X, Agfa APX 100 have been discontinued. Some liked them because it took a certain skill to get sharp results. More recently the last of the microfilms (made by Agfa) has been discontinued and with it the possibility to get best resolution of fine detail. Modern film thus no longer includes these two possibilities, except maybe from ebay or respooled old film.

And that's a shame to me. Personally I enjoy the look of those older slower emulsions and the extra effort to achieve something nice.
Emulsions that replaced them like tmax are beautiful, incredibly sharp and fine grain but not for me.
I'd love to try panatomic, maybe one day.
Mostly I've just been shooting double X when it comes to b&W.
 

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I'm far from an expert but I once found a foto album from the 1920"s (pretty good guess) the image quality was amazing.
The photo paper was paper thin and not glossy but the tones and textures were beautiful
 
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Basically everything was worse. The more you go back in time the harder it was to take a good picture. Speed was lower, grain was bigger, spectral sensitivity was orthochromatic or even less, developers were more toxic, emulsions did not have as long expiry date and were more prone to storage conditions before development.
Were old b&W developers more toxic? I wouldn't have thought so.
Certainly colour ones were, bring back formaldehyde haha.
Afaik because of this the 35mm still camera was invented.

It does take perforated 35mm film, just like a movie camera, and was used for test shots. You put some of the movie film into the still camera and take some pictures of the setting, to check for the lighting and tonal range, probably also of the actors to check how their blue makeup would render on the screen - but probably also to test the emulsion itself because there was much bigger inconsistency in film production. The box of the film maybe said 10ISO, but actually this roll had like 5 or maybe 13ISO, tonal range and base fog may differ, also depending on how old it was or how it was stored and shipped. Too warm, too damp or too aged - and speed was reduced, more base fog etc. .
Also you had to develop soon. Today you can develop half a year or even a year after exposure without loosing the image on the negative or suffering speed-loss or base fog, back then you should develop within a few days. Current Kodak Vision 3 500T still says in the manual that you should develop as soon as possible after exposure - as 500T is a pretty high speed color film - back then a slow B&W film was about as sensitive to storage conditions and point of development as a high speed color film today, or even worse.
Also you had to pay more attention to what (chemical) fumes the emulsion was exhibited to. I once had an old book about photography from about 1905 - where they still were using glass plates and wooden plate holders. There was advice on how to restore a used wooden holder - and it adviced to only use a certain special paint, which chemicals would interact less with the emulsion on the glass plate - and it adviced to let the fresh painted holder rest open for several weeks or even months (!) to let the chemicals of the paint evaporate, so it wouldn`t damage the properties of the emulsion on the glass plate when inside the holder for a few hours only sometimes. And develop as soon as possible after exposure.
You bring up some very interesting points. Emulsion stability reminds me of Kodak making film in "tropical" lead cans!
Humidity must've been of great concern to unused stock. What effects it had on the film I wonder.
Latent image retention is another interesting point. The only modern film I've heard people being concerned over is pan f and even that is nowhere near as bad as what you're describing.

So those reasons for the creation of a 35mm stills camera make great justifiable sense to anyone of the period.
So, there were a lot of problems and a lot of improvements.
Today improvements probably have slowed down, but Kodak for example still is improving. Their Kodak Vision line started maybe in the late 90s, then got improved to Kodak Vision 2 and then to Kodak Vision 3. Grain got smaller, colors got more natural etc. .
So still there is improvement, probably also because it is easier to improve an emulsion by using computers for calculations and so on. Environmental laws led to ban of certain toxic raw chemicals, manufacturers had to alter some of their emulsions because of this anyway, but quality of films did not really suffer with every manufacturer and type of film.
Some films even got better - while becoming more environmental friendly. This could bee seen as the actual evolution of film.
Yes Kodak has continued to make improvements to motion stock, certainly there's no reason to complain about modern vision stock at all especially now that remjet is gone!

On the stills front it's a bit of a different story, as you've touched on chemical banning has meant that the best c41 emulsions date from the mid 2000's. No more are there anti newton layers, retouching layers, and now that ra4 isn't designed for c41 optical enlargement in mind colour negative stocks have gone rather rogue beyond that.
Just look at the colour crossover of Phoenix II! You'd never know if you just get a properly corrected scan from a lab.
Anyway that's a whole different tangent.
 
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And that's a shame to me. Personally I enjoy the look of those older slower emulsions and the extra effort to achieve something nice.
Emulsions that replaced them like tmax are beautiful, incredibly sharp and fine grain but not for me.
I'd love to try panatomic, maybe one day.
Mostly I've just been shooting double X when it comes to b&W.

Panatomic-X has a mythology built up around it that suggests that it has magical properties, and at times, the rave reviews border on fantastical. There's nothing it does that TMX doesn't do better — it doesn't have the sharpness of the Tmax films, nor the acutance. The tonal separation at the high end suffers with slight overexposure, and it often has more contrast than is optimal.
But that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I have used Pan-X in recent times, and it was fine, but didn't merit the excessive enthusiasm that some of its fans express.
 
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Panatomic-X has a mythology built up around it that suggests that it has magical properties, and at times, the rave reviews border on fantastical. There's nothing it does that TMX doesn't do better — it doesn't have the sharpness of the Tmax films, nor the acutance. The tonal separation at the high end suffers with slight overexposure, and it often has more contrast than is optimal.
But that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I have used Pan-X in recent times, and it was fine, but didn't merit the excessive enthusiasm that some of its fans express.

Oh yes things always look better in the rear view mirror. Tmax is certainly a technically superior film I'm never going to try and argue otherwise.
Still though, I'd be interested in trying panatomic and making a print from it to see how it behaves, and at least with its slow speed there's actually some chance of finding good stock.

I mean there's also those that argue that tri-x died when Kodak reformulated it to have lower silver content!
There will always be a difference between technical perfection and personal perception.
All that matters is that people use what they like to make photos they like and matter to them.
 
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Were old b&W developers more toxic? I wouldn't have thought so.
Certainly colour ones were, bring back formaldehyde haha.

...

Heck yeah. In the 19th century you didn`t live very long when being a photographer. They suffered nerve damage or died of cancer at rather early age, like 30. Some years ago there was one photographer in Japan, still using developers and emulsions from the 19th century - and he needed a lot of licences from the government to use these chemicals at all, probably also had a chemist degree, a lot of safety measures etc. ...

...

You bring up some very interesting points. Emulsion stability reminds me of Kodak making film in "tropical" lead cans!
Humidity must've been of great concern to unused stock. What effects it had on the film I wonder.
Latent image retention is another interesting point. The only modern film I've heard people being concerned over is pan f and even that is nowhere near as bad as what you're describing.

...

Yes, tropes were a real problem. High temperature, high humidity, not a lab everywhere for instant development... most cameras are black on the outside heating up in the sun and frying the film inside... there have been "tropical cameras" which were not blackened intentionally and had red bellows for example to reduce heat-up of the camera internals...
some color films were problematic still in the 1950s or 60s. There was a color film by Agfa which had some water-based color-coupler or something... the box read "unsuitable for tropes".
Here you could have a look at Kodak V3 500T too, the manual also goes in on temperature and humidity. Fog should be one of the big problems afaik.

...

So those reasons for the creation of a 35mm stills camera make great justifiable sense to anyone of the period.

Yes Kodak has continued to make improvements to motion stock, certainly there's no reason to complain about modern vision stock at all especially now that remjet is gone!

...

Unfortunately i cannot recall who invented the 35mm still, but afaik it just was a movie-film-stock-tester because films were that problematic back then.
And i think Kodak did improve their Vision series pretty fast. I really am no expert, but in this case advance hasn`t slowed down (a lot)...

...

On the stills front it's a bit of a different story, as you've touched on chemical banning has meant that the best c41 emulsions date from the mid 2000's. No more are there anti newton layers, retouching layers, and now that ra4 isn't designed for c41 optical enlargement in mind colour negative stocks have gone rather rogue beyond that.
Just look at the colour crossover of Phoenix II! You'd never know if you just get a properly corrected scan from a lab.
Anyway that's a whole different tangent.

Yes, chemical banning has an impact, i think shelf life also was reduced a bit, but i think the new Ektachrome also was re-formulated because of some banning but seems to be pretty good. But E6 surely is different than C41 - on the other hand this push-back still is no comparison to the problems back in the day...
 
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Nope, Kodachrome was unique. Fuji's positive/'chrome' films only rose to prominence in the 1990s. I think they've only ever done E6. If you're interested in what happened on the color positive front in addition to Kodak, the interesting stuff is all around Agfa and to an extent, Ansco (Anscochrome).

Oh Fuji have absolutely been making slide film longer than E6! They made R100 E4 film and before that there were emulsions based on agfa processes.
I'm talking 1940's!
 

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From what I understand the speed change only applied to b&W emulsions. And probably only amateur ones at that.
Certainly a reversal stock like Kodachrome wouldn't take a full stop over.

I imagine b&W by the '70's would've been rather good. Obviously predating modern technology but latent image retention, dynamic and tonal response and consistencies would've been rather good by then I'd think.

Colour would've been a very different story beyond well established processes which really only was Kodachrome.
It would be very interesting to be able to compare early kodacolors performance to portra for example just for the hell of it.

No, the change in ASA standard applied to all film stocks, although the process of evaluation would vary between negative and positive films.
And one of the reasons that the standard changed was that, with better metering, more shutters that performed accurately and the move to smaller film formats, the earlier "box speed" included too much of a margin against under-exposure.
I still have some 11x14 enlargements of myself and my brother and my mom that my dad printed in the employee use darkroom at the Canadian Kodak site in Toronto where he worked. They were printed from 828 (I think) Kodacolour negatives at some time before he transferred out to the North Vancouver Kodak lab, and their colour remains quite good, despite their age. You can tell that they are from older film, on older paper - things have improved after all - but they are still quite good.
Kodacolour improved consistently over the years. Much of my colour negative work was on Vericolour, in its various versions, and it was better than Kodacolour, but the differences were a matter of degree and suitability for their intended user. Portra is a further improvement, but it represents an evolution, not a revolution.
And of course the technology improvements in motion picture film also represented an evolution, rather than a revolution - steady improvements over the years, but still founded on a base that had already achieved a relatively high level of quality by the 1960s.
With Kodachrome, the Kodachrome 64 slides I have are better in a number of ways than the Kodachrome II slides I have (courtesy mostly of my Dad) and are definitely better than the Ektachrome-X slides I have, but the later versions of Ektachrome improved greatly, to the point where the late Ron Mowrey (Photo Engineer here on Photrio) who was one of the named patent holders for the K-14 Kodachrome process, considered the modern Ektachromes to be superior to the final versions of Kodachrome.
Some examples - all from Kodachrome slides I think:
My mom and dad from the late 1940s - showing the sort of colour deterioration you can encounter with Kodachrome of that era:
E-02-mom and dad 1951.jpg


My parents' home, in 1953, before I came on to the scene:

E-03-1953-res 1024.jpg


And my mom and my brother, in 1959:
E-13-1959.jpg


All dates E. & O. E. :smile:
 

koraks

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Oh Fuji have absolutely been making slide film longer than E6! They made R100 E4 film and before that there were emulsions based on agfa processes.
I'm talking 1940's!

E4 was introduced in 1966. I didn't realize fuji made slide film as early as that - and I can't find references that predate 1966 for their first color reversal product. Internationally, Fuji color slide film only rose to prominence int he 1980s though, mostly at the expense of Agfa in Europe. Only in the 1990s they gained a strong foothold in the US, eating up Kodak's market share.
 
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I'm far from an expert but I once found a foto album from the 1920"s (pretty good guess) the image quality was amazing.
The photo paper was paper thin and not glossy but the tones and textures were beautiful

That's an area that hasn't been explored yet. Certainly RC paper wasn't made for a long time yet so everything was fibre base.
I imagine the thinness was probably a cost saving and different weights of paper would've been available.
Such things like glossy overcoats probably didn't exist yet, just straight emulsion soaked into natural paper!
 

Lachlan Young

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That's an area that hasn't been explored yet. Certainly RC paper wasn't made for a long time yet so everything was fibre base.
I imagine the thinness was probably a cost saving and different weights of paper would've been available.
Such things like glossy overcoats probably didn't exist yet, just straight emulsion soaked into natural paper!


There were many weights of fibre base papers, not just double weight. Single-weight was about 135gsm, but there were papers for airmail/ folding that went as low as 70gsm (and didn't have a baryta layer, so they could be folded without cracking). Baryta was introduced as a barrier layer to prevent emulsion interference from cheaper paper bases in the era between the cessation of availability of premium European paper bases (WW1) and the advent of high alpha cellulose (1930s). There is plenty of good information out there on this.

Paper finishes, especially non glossy ones, have a lot to do with supercoat layers and matting addenda. The BIOS/ FIAT reports on Agfa Leverkusen give some very interesting details on this as it was done mid-20th century (though I would not advise reading them without some emulsion knowledge). A non supercoated emulsion (if no matting agents are added) is often glossier than you would expect.

There were evolutionary forms of rapid washing papers before RC, but the latter really came to the fore with the advent of more effective chromogenic processes about 50-60 years ago, as the bleaches/ blixes were not compatible with traditional FB paper bases.

Still though, I'd be interested in trying panatomic and making a print from it to see how it behaves

Not worth it. From what I've seen with archive material I've worked with (which was competently exposed and processed when in-date) it was not much better in terms of granularity and sharpness than the Plus-X of the era. And it seems from other evidence that can be found, Kodak was well aware of that internally.


I mean there's also those that argue that tri-x died when Kodak reformulated it to have lower silver content!

The silver rich canard is populist garbage. You need a certain level of silver to deliver the required characteristics, and any beyond that that cannot be sensitised is wasted. What people think was silver level related was rather other emulsion characteristics that weren't necessarily desirable for other (at the time larger scale) uses, coupled to the emulsion making technology (specifically, computer aided manufacturing) having to play catch up in some cases with corporate desires to be seen to be ahead of the curve in terms of environmental and workforce safety. Some of the other nonsense about Tri-X probably relates to Kodak having managed to make much more tightly monodisperse 3D crystal emulsions with the B38 version, rather than earlier versions that had perhaps a little bit more polydispersity of crystal form.
 
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Paper finishes, especially non glossy ones, have a lot to do with supercoat layers and matting addenda. The BIOS/ FIAT reports on Agfa Leverkusen give some very interesting details on this as it was done mid-20th century (though I would not advise reading them without some emulsion knowledge). A non supercoated emulsion (if no matting agents are added) is often glossier than you would expect.
That's interesting to note. I suppose it makes sense that gelatin on its own has a somewhat glossiness to it. I also wonder how much a supercoat affects the emulsions resistance to scratches whilst wet.
There were evolutionary forms of rapid washing papers before RC, but the latter really came to the fore with the advent of more effective chromogenic processes about 50-60 years ago, as the bleaches/ blixes were not compatible with traditional FB paper bases.
Never heard of rapid wash papers pre RC, but I do know chromogenic papers on fibre did exist and that they were discontinued a very long time ago now because of the blix never fully washing out of the paper and causing loads of issues because of it. namely staining and dye stability issues. but apparently colour on fibre added a really nice depth to the image.
Not worth it. From what I've seen with archive material I've worked with (which was competently exposed and processed when in-date) it was not much better in terms of granularity and sharpness than the Plus-X of the era. And it seems from other evidence that can be found, Kodak was well aware of that internally.
Good to know, and news to me really. I'm sure earlier on in plus-x's existence there would've been some fair margin between the two but by the 80's it's not shocking that a mid speed film like plus-x could swallow up the difference with refinement. But is finer really better? panatomic certainly would have a different tonality than plus-x. I'd still like to try it.
The silver rich canard is populist garbage. You need a certain level of silver to deliver the required characteristics, and any beyond that that cannot be sensitised is wasted. What people think was silver level related was rather other emulsion characteristics that weren't necessarily desirable for other (at the time larger scale) uses, coupled to the emulsion making technology (specifically, computer aided manufacturing) having to play catch up in some cases with corporate desires to be seen to be ahead of the curve in terms of environmental and workforce safety. Some of the other nonsense about Tri-X probably relates to Kodak having managed to make much more tightly monodisperse 3D crystal emulsions with the B38 version, rather than earlier versions that had perhaps a little bit more polydispersity of crystal form.
Yes I really didn't believe it myself. computer refinement making the emulsion more controlled in dispersion is a interesting factor to consider, and is probably where people might pluck any sort of visual difference from, but I really doubt you'd ever know the difference.
 

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Mark Osterman has been recreating 1920s period film for a Leica Anniversary. He is also participating here, just do not know his handle top of mind.

Oh Fuji have absolutely been making slide film longer than E6! They made R100 E4 film and before that there were emulsions based on agfa processes.
I'm talking 1940's!
Recall reading some film history long ago, which I cannot even cite or find, but there were other film manufacturers having Kodachrome compatible films, Fuji could be it and specially around the K12 era.


An old interesting thread, and I recommend you read many of Photo Engineer's contributions in APUG:

Paraphrasing PE, Current TMX was not improved in 2007 because it was deemed almost as good as it would be for the diminishing returns; TMY-2 is the latest in B&W. They probably carry over from Color R&D as it was the main driver after the 80s. Ilford did some minor improvements in Delta 400 back ca 2007?
The last big product change in still films was in 2008-11 with Ektar and the new Portra 160, 400. Portra 800 is referred to be based off Vision 2 and not overhauled then.
I recall coming into the hobby shortly after Fuji's latest improvements with Provia 400X ca. 2007, otherwise most of the lineup was upgraded ca 2000-2003? Fuji's film is however amazing reciprocity wise.

I would have loved to try other manufacturer's color film just for the different rendition. Agfa, Konica, Ferrania. Recall back then skipping on the latter because it was the "drugstore" brand. Now, as the OP asks about technical quality and photographer use, I recall as a newcomer then to look up for the Professional line or middle consumer films such as Superia. Fuji C200 and Kodacolor Plus 200 were the consumer films. Grainy, not the best color, 2-3€ a roll. Check contemporary reviews from the 90s up to 2012 or so, and these films were evaluated from a more technical perspective.
Now it's vibes and tones! So the grainyness and color rendition that deviates from neutral are actually desirable.

It is interesting how the new color journey for Harman, Lucky, Adox and Orwo/Inovis are to leap into C41 Color as far good as possible.

Panatomic-X has a mythology built up around it that suggests that it has magical properties, and at times, the rave reviews border on fantastical. There's nothing it does that TMX doesn't do better — it doesn't have the sharpness of the Tmax films, nor the acutance. The tonal separation at the high end suffers with slight overexposure, and it often has more contrast than is optimal.
But that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I have used Pan-X in recent times, and it was fine, but didn't merit the excessive enthusiasm that some of its fans express.
About contemporary B&W, would point classic films as Fomapan and Adox CHS 100. If quite a bit of them is mostly older 50-70s tech. Adox have shared some details in the forums when they released it and includes some improvements compared to Efke's version, but otherwise the aim was to reproduce the classic Adox-Efke cubical grain films. Out of curiosity I'd have liked to try Plus-X, Panatomic-X, Verichrome Pan and other well regarded classics that might be so nowadays because of nostalgia.

Unironically I saw a man wearing a "Kodak Verichrome pan" T-shirt the other day!
 
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