were these films that were once considered the best of the best that great by modern film standards?
Were they more delicate to handle?
curl like buggery when drying?
handle over and under exposure like modern stocks?
Again, not even close.entertain a level of sharpness and grain remotely comparable to now?
Again, atrocious if you apply today's Kodak standards to it.What was QC like?
That's too big a question for a single PhD thesis.how did things evolve during and after major world events like both world wars?
Simply put, around 2003 when the world of analog photography collapsed. Arguably, in the 1980s things started to slow down already due to the technology maturing and marginal returns on R&D investment sloping off. This was visible in the industry structure and the shakedown in which several big (at that point) names were lost in time.and when did evolution taper off to where we are today?
Could you expand upon this?No, they were abysmal by today's objective standards. Decades of R&D actually did have a purpose.
And reticulate like mad if you dared to subject them to even modest temperature gradients, or somewhat longish wet times.
And yet Kodak's standards are lower today than they were 20 years ago. Though for very different reasons.Again, atrocious if you apply today's Kodak standards to it.
That makes sense. Certainly for conventional processes. I have heard about Kodak CI and their plan to revolutionise film but it was too little too late.Simply put, around 2003 when the world of analog photography collapsed. Arguably, in the 1980s things started to slow down already due to the technology maturing and marginal returns on R&D investment sloping off. This was visible in the industry structure and the shakedown in which several big (at that point) names were lost in time.
Too many to list and I'm not a film historian. Perhaps someone else is inclined to respond.What were the most pivotal changes over the years?
Regarding the question about the World War, and limiting it to Japan, a while back I added some information to the Fuji Neopan Wikipedia article by translating some Japanese-text history.
Fujifilm in the 30s was just figuring out how to make their B&W films sensitive enough to the full spectrum. The small format film required manual loading into 35mm cassettes. These were slow speed films around ISO 40. Mostly people were using roll film for a variety of reasons including the films and camera lenses lower resolution and for ease of printing.
It wasn't until the mid 50s that they started coming out with more modern, faster films, up to ISO 200. In the 1940s during the height of the war and the subsequent reconstruction, they made very little improvement to the films.
On the other side of the water, the winners of this war, Kodak, seemed to be about 10 years ahead in technology, until Japan's boom of the 80s.
Did you know Fuji once made a competitor to Kodachrome?
It has always been a given for someone who grew up in the 21st century, knowing the accepted limits of what to expect from a photographic emulsion.
Films technical refinement hasn't reached new heights in decades now, and there are different flavours for different shooters, whether that be conventional cubic emulsions or tabular grain films for example. and we also know exactly what QC and consistencies to expect from mainstream manufacturers too.
But something I've often wondered is, how has this changed over time? Especially during the early years when emulsions being coated onto "film" was a new concept in of itself. And ultimately how that translated for the shooter and processor.
Because no matter how good the camera was, the core limitation largely comes down to the film itself.
Over time I have heard about early emulsions, most recently for me was learning what the first emulsions kodak sold in 35mm were. It seems unbelievable to me that b&w stocks topped out around 50 iso, and given names such as "super sensitive". Even kodachrome was a mere 10 iso originally.
So, were these films that were once considered the best of the best that great by modern film standards?
Were they more delicate to handle? curl like buggery when drying? handle over and under exposure like modern stocks? entertain a level of sharpness and grain remotely comparable to now?
What was QC like? how did things evolve during and after major world events like both world wars? and when did evolution taper off to where we are today?
FWIW, the ASA (not ISO) 10 films like Kodachrome would have been rated as ISO 20 now - the ASA speed standard was changed in 1961 to take out the no longer needed extra margin for error.
And as for Eastman Kodak's current standards, they exceed the earlier standards, but the reality of the distribution and marketing world means that for still films, the product has to deal with a wider range of conditions.
The motion picture film isn't faced with quite the same challenges, and relatively speaking, is superb.
There were other competing attempts to create Kodachrome like films - Agfa comes to mind - but as the existence of Kodachrome was so closely intertwined with its use as movie film, there were never any equally successful alternatives. Once home movies on film declined, Kodachrome could not survive.
One of the challenges that Eastman Kodak had around the time that the market precipitously declined was that their early efforts at automating and computerizing QC meant that they had in place a number of systems that had been cutting edge, but had become out of date and needed replacement.
I started using Kodak film in the 1960s, and I started using it extensively in the 1970s.
Modern film is definitely advanced compared to the stuff I used in the 1970s, but the 1970s will was robust, and gave excellent results
In the past 30 years all the previous generation of (low iodide?) films such as Efke, Panatomic X, Plus X, Agfa APX 100 have been discontinued. Some liked them because it took a certain skill to get sharp results. More recently the last of the microfilms (made by Agfa) has been discontinued and with it the possibility to get best resolution of fine detail. Modern film thus no longer includes these two possibilities, except maybe from ebay or respooled old film.
Were old b&W developers more toxic? I wouldn't have thought so.Basically everything was worse. The more you go back in time the harder it was to take a good picture. Speed was lower, grain was bigger, spectral sensitivity was orthochromatic or even less, developers were more toxic, emulsions did not have as long expiry date and were more prone to storage conditions before development.
You bring up some very interesting points. Emulsion stability reminds me of Kodak making film in "tropical" lead cans!Afaik because of this the 35mm still camera was invented.
It does take perforated 35mm film, just like a movie camera, and was used for test shots. You put some of the movie film into the still camera and take some pictures of the setting, to check for the lighting and tonal range, probably also of the actors to check how their blue makeup would render on the screen - but probably also to test the emulsion itself because there was much bigger inconsistency in film production. The box of the film maybe said 10ISO, but actually this roll had like 5 or maybe 13ISO, tonal range and base fog may differ, also depending on how old it was or how it was stored and shipped. Too warm, too damp or too aged - and speed was reduced, more base fog etc. .
Also you had to develop soon. Today you can develop half a year or even a year after exposure without loosing the image on the negative or suffering speed-loss or base fog, back then you should develop within a few days. Current Kodak Vision 3 500T still says in the manual that you should develop as soon as possible after exposure - as 500T is a pretty high speed color film - back then a slow B&W film was about as sensitive to storage conditions and point of development as a high speed color film today, or even worse.
Also you had to pay more attention to what (chemical) fumes the emulsion was exhibited to. I once had an old book about photography from about 1905 - where they still were using glass plates and wooden plate holders. There was advice on how to restore a used wooden holder - and it adviced to only use a certain special paint, which chemicals would interact less with the emulsion on the glass plate - and it adviced to let the fresh painted holder rest open for several weeks or even months (!) to let the chemicals of the paint evaporate, so it wouldn`t damage the properties of the emulsion on the glass plate when inside the holder for a few hours only sometimes. And develop as soon as possible after exposure.
Yes Kodak has continued to make improvements to motion stock, certainly there's no reason to complain about modern vision stock at all especially now that remjet is gone!So, there were a lot of problems and a lot of improvements.
Today improvements probably have slowed down, but Kodak for example still is improving. Their Kodak Vision line started maybe in the late 90s, then got improved to Kodak Vision 2 and then to Kodak Vision 3. Grain got smaller, colors got more natural etc. .
So still there is improvement, probably also because it is easier to improve an emulsion by using computers for calculations and so on. Environmental laws led to ban of certain toxic raw chemicals, manufacturers had to alter some of their emulsions because of this anyway, but quality of films did not really suffer with every manufacturer and type of film.
Some films even got better - while becoming more environmental friendly. This could bee seen as the actual evolution of film.
And that's a shame to me. Personally I enjoy the look of those older slower emulsions and the extra effort to achieve something nice.
Emulsions that replaced them like tmax are beautiful, incredibly sharp and fine grain but not for me.
I'd love to try panatomic, maybe one day.
Mostly I've just been shooting double X when it comes to b&W.
Panatomic-X has a mythology built up around it that suggests that it has magical properties, and at times, the rave reviews border on fantastical. There's nothing it does that TMX doesn't do better — it doesn't have the sharpness of the Tmax films, nor the acutance. The tonal separation at the high end suffers with slight overexposure, and it often has more contrast than is optimal.
But that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I have used Pan-X in recent times, and it was fine, but didn't merit the excessive enthusiasm that some of its fans express.
Were old b&W developers more toxic? I wouldn't have thought so.
Certainly colour ones were, bring back formaldehyde haha.
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You bring up some very interesting points. Emulsion stability reminds me of Kodak making film in "tropical" lead cans!
Humidity must've been of great concern to unused stock. What effects it had on the film I wonder.
Latent image retention is another interesting point. The only modern film I've heard people being concerned over is pan f and even that is nowhere near as bad as what you're describing.
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So those reasons for the creation of a 35mm stills camera make great justifiable sense to anyone of the period.
Yes Kodak has continued to make improvements to motion stock, certainly there's no reason to complain about modern vision stock at all especially now that remjet is gone!
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On the stills front it's a bit of a different story, as you've touched on chemical banning has meant that the best c41 emulsions date from the mid 2000's. No more are there anti newton layers, retouching layers, and now that ra4 isn't designed for c41 optical enlargement in mind colour negative stocks have gone rather rogue beyond that.
Just look at the colour crossover of Phoenix II! You'd never know if you just get a properly corrected scan from a lab.
Anyway that's a whole different tangent.
Nope, Kodachrome was unique. Fuji's positive/'chrome' films only rose to prominence in the 1990s. I think they've only ever done E6. If you're interested in what happened on the color positive front in addition to Kodak, the interesting stuff is all around Agfa and to an extent, Ansco (Anscochrome).
From what I understand the speed change only applied to b&W emulsions. And probably only amateur ones at that.
Certainly a reversal stock like Kodachrome wouldn't take a full stop over.
I imagine b&W by the '70's would've been rather good. Obviously predating modern technology but latent image retention, dynamic and tonal response and consistencies would've been rather good by then I'd think.
Colour would've been a very different story beyond well established processes which really only was Kodachrome.
It would be very interesting to be able to compare early kodacolors performance to portra for example just for the hell of it.
Oh Fuji have absolutely been making slide film longer than E6! They made R100 E4 film and before that there were emulsions based on agfa processes.
I'm talking 1940's!
I'm far from an expert but I once found a foto album from the 1920"s (pretty good guess) the image quality was amazing.
The photo paper was paper thin and not glossy but the tones and textures were beautiful
That's an area that hasn't been explored yet. Certainly RC paper wasn't made for a long time yet so everything was fibre base.
I imagine the thinness was probably a cost saving and different weights of paper would've been available.
Such things like glossy overcoats probably didn't exist yet, just straight emulsion soaked into natural paper!
Still though, I'd be interested in trying panatomic and making a print from it to see how it behaves
I mean there's also those that argue that tri-x died when Kodak reformulated it to have lower silver content!
That's interesting to note. I suppose it makes sense that gelatin on its own has a somewhat glossiness to it. I also wonder how much a supercoat affects the emulsions resistance to scratches whilst wet.Paper finishes, especially non glossy ones, have a lot to do with supercoat layers and matting addenda. The BIOS/ FIAT reports on Agfa Leverkusen give some very interesting details on this as it was done mid-20th century (though I would not advise reading them without some emulsion knowledge). A non supercoated emulsion (if no matting agents are added) is often glossier than you would expect.
Never heard of rapid wash papers pre RC, but I do know chromogenic papers on fibre did exist and that they were discontinued a very long time ago now because of the blix never fully washing out of the paper and causing loads of issues because of it. namely staining and dye stability issues. but apparently colour on fibre added a really nice depth to the image.There were evolutionary forms of rapid washing papers before RC, but the latter really came to the fore with the advent of more effective chromogenic processes about 50-60 years ago, as the bleaches/ blixes were not compatible with traditional FB paper bases.
Good to know, and news to me really. I'm sure earlier on in plus-x's existence there would've been some fair margin between the two but by the 80's it's not shocking that a mid speed film like plus-x could swallow up the difference with refinement. But is finer really better? panatomic certainly would have a different tonality than plus-x. I'd still like to try it.Not worth it. From what I've seen with archive material I've worked with (which was competently exposed and processed when in-date) it was not much better in terms of granularity and sharpness than the Plus-X of the era. And it seems from other evidence that can be found, Kodak was well aware of that internally.
Yes I really didn't believe it myself. computer refinement making the emulsion more controlled in dispersion is a interesting factor to consider, and is probably where people might pluck any sort of visual difference from, but I really doubt you'd ever know the difference.The silver rich canard is populist garbage. You need a certain level of silver to deliver the required characteristics, and any beyond that that cannot be sensitised is wasted. What people think was silver level related was rather other emulsion characteristics that weren't necessarily desirable for other (at the time larger scale) uses, coupled to the emulsion making technology (specifically, computer aided manufacturing) having to play catch up in some cases with corporate desires to be seen to be ahead of the curve in terms of environmental and workforce safety. Some of the other nonsense about Tri-X probably relates to Kodak having managed to make much more tightly monodisperse 3D crystal emulsions with the B38 version, rather than earlier versions that had perhaps a little bit more polydispersity of crystal form.
Recall reading some film history long ago, which I cannot even cite or find, but there were other film manufacturers having Kodachrome compatible films, Fuji could be it and specially around the K12 era.Oh Fuji have absolutely been making slide film longer than E6! They made R100 E4 film and before that there were emulsions based on agfa processes.
I'm talking 1940's!
About contemporary B&W, would point classic films as Fomapan and Adox CHS 100. If quite a bit of them is mostly older 50-70s tech. Adox have shared some details in the forums when they released it and includes some improvements compared to Efke's version, but otherwise the aim was to reproduce the classic Adox-Efke cubical grain films. Out of curiosity I'd have liked to try Plus-X, Panatomic-X, Verichrome Pan and other well regarded classics that might be so nowadays because of nostalgia.Panatomic-X has a mythology built up around it that suggests that it has magical properties, and at times, the rave reviews border on fantastical. There's nothing it does that TMX doesn't do better — it doesn't have the sharpness of the Tmax films, nor the acutance. The tonal separation at the high end suffers with slight overexposure, and it often has more contrast than is optimal.
But that's just my personal opinion. Yes, I have used Pan-X in recent times, and it was fine, but didn't merit the excessive enthusiasm that some of its fans express.
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