Film developer for hot summer?

Usagi · Jun 12, 2011

The idea of question just come to my mind, when I was desperately trying to keep water bath at 22°C (which is coolest water I can get) and develop sheet films.. when ambient temperature inside my aparthment is 29°C

Is there any good b/w developer which works well in developing temperatures between 26°C .. 29°C. That would allow use of Jobo Expert tank on simple roller base without temperature problems.

If such developer exist, and it gaves reasonable developing times (not too short) to work with, how does film get along in those temperatures?

Will it go too soft and easy to scratch?

SWphoto · Jun 12, 2011

What about Diafine? There are several threads on the Large Format Forum about suing it with sheet film, and with Expert Drums.

Ian Grant · Jun 12, 2011

The past 4 summers I was living in Turkey on the Aegean coast, while the ambient temperature was in the high 30's water temperature never went above 28°C. I used Pyrocat HD and always worked at the water temperature mostly 27°C, and it was very easy to keep the whole process cycle within +/- 0.5°C of the initial dev temperature.

One advantage of Pyrocat is it's a tanning developer which hardens the emulsion as it develops.

Should have said my dev times dropped from 15 mins to 9 mins, negative quality is no different at all.

Ian

wogster · Jun 12, 2011

Usagi said:
The idea of question just come to my mind, when I was desperately trying to keep water bath at 22°C (which is coolest water I can get) and develop sheet films.. when ambient temperature inside my aparthment is 29°C

Is there any good b/w developer which works well in developing temperatures between 26°C .. 29°C. That would allow use of Jobo Expert tank on simple roller base without temperature problems.

If such developer exist, and it gaves reasonable developing times (not too short) to work with, how does film get along in those temperatures?

Will it go too soft and easy to scratch?

The key is you don't want to process film at 29℃ the time gets too short and some films will scratch easily. What you need to do is cool everything down.

There are two ways to do this, the cheap way and the expensive way, first the expensive way:

PUT AN AIR CONDITIONER IN YOUR DARK ROOM.

Now the cheap way, get a bunch of those cooler ice packs, that you freeze then put in the cooler to keep it cool in the summer, they look like this:

put them in the freezer and let them get hard.

Now you get a large tray and fill it with water about half way, put your solution bottles in there, add a couple of the cooler packs, and let the temperature get down to about 19 degrees. Now you process your film, even at 29 degrees the temperature during a 5 or 6 minute development isn't going to increase more then a couple of degrees. The stop and fix with the solution bottles from your tray. Keep a thermometer in the tray, if it gets too cool, fish the cooler packs out, if it gets too warm, put them in. Include a container of water, so you can use the Ilford Wash method, without dealing with massive temperature changes. You will need to start cooling several hours before you start working though.

Sirius Glass · Jun 12, 2011

Usagi said:
The idea of question just come to my mind, when I was desperately trying to keep water bath at 22°C (which is coolest water I can get) and develop sheet films.. when ambient temperature inside my aparthment is 29°C

Is there any good b/w developer which works well in developing temperatures between 26°C .. 29°C. That would allow use of Jobo Expert tank on simple roller base without temperature problems.

If such developer exist, and it gaves reasonable developing times (not too short) to work with, how does film get along in those temperatures?

Will it go too soft and easy to scratch?

Fill the Jobo bottles with water and freeze them with the tops off. Place the bottles in their slots in the water bath. After the water cools, set the temperature on the Jobo and let the temperature control stabilize the temperature. I have done this.

Steve

Ian Grant · Jun 12, 2011

Forget cooling without a full temperature control system, you'll get awful negatives, in hot weather it's damn near impossible to use cooling as a control manually.

It's so simple to work to tap water temperature, that's usually very stable.

Ian

Sirius Glass · Jun 12, 2011

Ian Grant said:
Forget cooling without a full temperature control system, you'll get awful negatives, in hot weather it's damn near impossible to use cooling as a control manually.

It's so simple to work to tap water temperature, that's usually very stable.

Ian

Which is exactly what I posted. The Jobo can handle the temperature and produce great results as I stated. The OP stated that he has a Jobo Expert Tank, however he was not complete clear as to whether or not he has a Jobo processor.

hrst · Jun 12, 2011

Just buy an air conditioner. They are not that expensive. The cheap Chinese mobile units that push out hot air work just fine as it does not get THAT hot in Finland. Just modify it a bit so that it does not push the interior air out but takes the "hot side" input air from an additional duct coming from outside.

I know it's a bit frustrating to buy an A/C just for 10 to 20 days here, but they go for as low as 250 EUR new (as I bought mine last summer) or less than 100 EUR used (in winter) and they last for your life. It is also a lot more convenient to be at home and sleep when it's not 29 deg.C & 90% RH, so that's a good investment anyway..... Plastic spirals also work better and film dries faster if you have a reasonable RH.

With the current weather, I'm having 22 deg.C with pleasant humidity at my apartment of 40 m^2, thanks to a 250 EUR small Chinese mobile AC, rated 9000 BTU/h, ~1000 W electric power. They work as long as you don't have large windows where sun shines in. If this is the case, you either need a real A/C or use some aluminium foil...

Gerald C Koch · Jun 12, 2011

Some years ago in consideration of improvements in film technology, Kodak changed their recommended developing temperature to 75 F (24 C).

trexx · Jun 12, 2011

The lowest temperature tap water at my location is is 26C. Today 28C. When I tried to keep dev temp. are a 20C or even 24C. Only when I go with the temperature out of the tap and adjust time do I get consistent results.

Sowers · Jun 12, 2011

I've found that during the summer here in Florida the tap runs at about 82F. At first I started using developers that I could dilute to draw out the development times. I was using Microdol-X at 1+3 to get a decently long development time. I've since switched to XTOL. My current method is to dilute 1+1 (except for Pan F+, which still gets 1+3) using the developer at ambient (78F thanks to A/C), and a combination of tap water and Brita water from the fridge to get a final temp of 68-70F. I've found the developer temp will rise about 2 or 3 degrees during development so I tweak my times a bit based on that. Since it's one-shot development there's no need to maintain temp with a water bath.

tkamiya · Jun 12, 2011

My experience is identical to the one posted above me by SOWERS. I am in Central Florida as well and my room temp is usually at 81F. I adjust my dev temp to 68F by cooling it in water bath, then just develop as usual. Rest of the chems are at ambient temp. Wash temp is whatever the tap water comes out.

If I am processing Tmax400, I usually reduce dev time by 10 to 15% to tame the contrast but Tri-X and Plus-X usually gets processed at published time.

I used to be extremely careful and maintain dev temp within 1 degree F +/- during development. If you use large enough amount of water, it is not that difficult to maintain this accuracy for 10 to 15 minutes. But honestly, I really don't think I gained much by being this precise.

nworth · Jun 13, 2011

Adjusting the development time works just fine up to 85F and maybe a bit over. Adding a slug of sodium sulfate (as in "tropical" developers) will extend it into the 90s, although development times may get embarrassingly short. An air conditioner is a good investment. Split (2 bath) developers are famous for their ability to work over a wide range of (high) temperatures.

lordvader · Jun 13, 2011

I was on the road a few months back, and practically anywhere north of Sydney was extremely high water temps.
I just filled 2 liter jugs of water, put them in the fridge for the day, then adjust the temps upwards when it was time to use them.

debanddg · Jun 13, 2011

+1 to the post above.. also if you prefer a longer development time, consider switching off your fridge [to avoid compressor vibrations] just before you start developing and keeping the tank in one of the shelves - take out - invert - put it back.. of course, I assume that you'll follow safety norms so as not to spill any of the liquids inside the fridge.

garysamson · Jun 13, 2011

Ian Grant said:
The past 4 summers I was living in Turkey on the Aegean coast, while the ambient temperature was in the high 30's water temperature never went above 28°C. I used Pyrocat HD and always worked at the water temperature mostly 27°C, and it was very easy to keep the whole process cycle within +/- 0.5°C of the initial dev temperature.

One advantage of Pyrocat is it's a tanning developer which hardens the emulsion as it develops.

Should have said my dev times dropped from 15 mins to 9 mins, negative quality is no different at all.

Ian

+1

wogster · Jun 13, 2011

hrst said:
Just buy an air conditioner. They are not that expensive. The cheap Chinese mobile units that push out hot air work just fine as it does not get THAT hot in Finland. Just modify it a bit so that it does not push the interior air out but takes the "hot side" input air from an additional duct coming from outside.

I know it's a bit frustrating to buy an A/C just for 10 to 20 days here, but they go for as low as 250 EUR new (as I bought mine last summer) or less than 100 EUR used (in winter) and they last for your life. It is also a lot more convenient to be at home and sleep when it's not 29 deg.C & 90% RH, so that's a good investment anyway..... Plastic spirals also work better and film dries faster if you have a reasonable RH.

With the current weather, I'm having 22 deg.C with pleasant humidity at my apartment of 40 m^2, thanks to a 250 EUR small Chinese mobile AC, rated 9000 BTU/h, ~1000 W electric power. They work as long as you don't have large windows where sun shines in. If this is the case, you either need a real A/C or use some aluminium foil...

A/C's depend on how expensive electric power is and how old the unit is, if you buy a used unit, then you should count on having it checked over by an A/C technician, the portable ones are heavy and tend to get banged around a lot, so they leak gas after a few years, and the word maximum on the control only applies to the amount of power they use. Unfortunately having a technician service one, may cost another 100, so if a used one is 100 and servicing is 100, and a new one is 250, the extra 50 may be money well spent. New ones may be more efficient power wise because they need to meet newer efficiency guidelines.

Consider yourself lucky, I live in Canada and I had to turn the %$#@% heat on this morning to take the chill off.

bblhed · Jun 13, 2011

I would assume that you have some sort of appliance to keep your food cold, use that to chill your chemicals when you want to process your film just take the chemicals out and let them warm up.

trexx · Jun 13, 2011

bblhed said:
I would assume that you have some sort of appliance to keep your food cold, use that to chill your chemicals when you want to process your film just take the chemicals out and let them warm up.

So you chill them in the fridge and get them to 10C cause you got started on something else. OK the developer will get to temp. soon. When it hits 20C you start., first the soak water, then the developer, dump the developer. Oh, but whats this, the developer is cloudy, and the temp is 25C. You stop and fix, wash and hope.

The results are disappointing. (Fill in the blank how) The developer precipitated out in the cold and the temp went from 20-25 in the time to develop. No way to have consistency.

The next time you take the temp of your fluids (at what ever room temperature is), adjust by charts. get consistent results.

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2011

I have put the chemical bottles in the refrigerator for 30 minutes and gotten the temperature to 70-72 degrees F. I have done that in the past year and it worked well for black & white.

Steve

Usagi · Jun 13, 2011

Ian Grant said:
The past 4 summers I was living in Turkey on the Aegean coast, while the ambient temperature was in the high 30's water temperature never went above 28°C. I used Pyrocat HD and always worked at the water temperature mostly 27°C, and it was very easy to keep the whole process cycle within +/- 0.5°C of the initial dev temperature.

One advantage of Pyrocat is it's a tanning developer which hardens the emulsion as it develops.

Should have said my dev times dropped from 15 mins to 9 mins, negative quality is no different at all.

Ian

Thanks!

I have already Pyrocat-HD as my alternative developer to D-76.
This helps a lot.

As for the A/C, yeah it would be nice.. But as I live in the rental flat, I doubt that it's really a possibility - and if would, the A/C would be installed in the living room.

It will be autumn when temperature drops back to confortable level, around 24 degree Celsius (which is coolest temperature inside during cold winter).

Cooling the water bath down? That's what I have done but it's really too frustrating to freeze 'ice containers' and keep lot of water at cooled cellar and carry those water canisters around.

Thus - looking for easier solution in the form of developer.

ps. I have jobo expert tank, but I do not have jobo processor so I have to run it without water bath.

wogster · Jun 13, 2011

trexx said:
So you chill them in the fridge and get them to 10C cause you got started on something else. OK the developer will get to temp. soon. When it hits 20C you start., first the soak water, then the developer, dump the developer. Oh, but whats this, the developer is cloudy, and the temp is 25C. You stop and fix, wash and hope.

The results are disappointing. (Fill in the blank how) The developer precipitated out in the cold and the temp went from 20-25 in the time to develop. No way to have consistency.

The next time you take the temp of your fluids (at what ever room temperature is), adjust by charts. get consistent results.

I seriously doubt that if it's 29 degrees outside that a developer will go from 20 to 25 in the 10 minutes or so that it takes to develop a roll of film. When you put the stuff in the fridge, you set a mechanical timer that you set where you will hear it, and when it goes off, go deal with it.

Usagi · Jun 13, 2011

I guess there is simple formula for calculatin how fast water will warm up...
What I know is that it's faster than one could imagine. Waterbath will go easily from 19 degree to 22+ degree with 10 minutes in 29 degree ambient.

(that's why I had standardized my developing for years to 24 degree celsius until went back to 20 degree in hope of longer developing times)

Paul Howell · Jun 13, 2011

I live in Phoenix, my summer tap water runs over 90 f or about 32 degrees C. I would love a tap of 24 or 25 C. I have used Dinafine but my wash water was just too hot. I built a chiller using a 10 gallon bucket, copper tubing, and ice I can cool my tap water down to 22 or 23 C. A large bag of ice will last about 7 to 8 m so I use Orbit Bath or another hypo clearing agent. As I live the Desert I do have AC, when I plan on working in the darkroom I set the AC for 72 degrees F and use a small amount of Ice to bring my water bath for chem down to around 70.

BetterSense · Jun 13, 2011

I just get ice from the refrigerator and use that to cool my solutions. This is how it is always done in chemistry labs; they have crushed ice machines just for the purpose. Developer temperature can be maintained just by setting the tank in a water bath. It only takes me a handful of ice to do a roll. A very simple thing if you have ice.

Film developer for hot summer?

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency