film contrast and scanning

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alanrockwood

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I have read in several places that it is best to develop negatives to low contrast for scanning. I don't understand why this would be so. It seems to me that the dynamic range of a negative is fairly low, even if it is a high-contrast negative. (I'm referring to the negative itself, not the scene that was being photographed.) Therefore, any scanner of reasonable specifications should be able to capture the full dynamic range of the negative, so it shouldn't matter if the negative is contrasty or not. Am I missing something? Perhaps it has something to do with the amount of grain that will be visible in the scan?
 

Kino

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Because, when you raise contrast in the negative, you eliminate a lot of intermediate densities that could be more successfully manipulated in a scan.

It's not the density, it's the content...
 

jim10219

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What kind of film are we talking about here? Because B&W, C41, and E4 all scan quite differently and have very different requirements.
 
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alanrockwood

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What kind of film are we talking about here? Because B&W, C41, and E4 all scan quite differently and have very different requirements.
Mainly black and white negatives, though comments on the others would be welcome as well if anyone wants to comment on them.
 

Les Sarile

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Have you tried scanning the same frame of film in low (and your normal) contrast mode and compare your results?
 

jim10219

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With lower contrast development, you can get an extended range of tones at the expense of negative density. With software, you can easily make up the loss of image density and still keep the increased range of tones.

With slide film, higher contrast can make the image more difficult to scan. It can be hard to extract all of the shadow detail without blowing out the highlights. Some scanners handle this better than others. Though I don't know how much development has to do with it, as I don't develop E6 on my own. But choosing lower contrast slide film may be easier on certain scanners. For instance, Provia 100 is usually easier to scan than Velvia 50. On my flatbed scanner, I usually have to make two passes with Velvia, one at a low exposure and one at a high exposure and then average to two (done in the scanning software) in order to get a full range of values.
 

PhilBurton

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...

On my flatbed scanner, I usually have to make two passes with Velvia, one at a low exposure and one at a high exposure and then average to two (done in the scanning software) in order to get a full range of values.

Which scanning software? What does that software call the averaging feature?

Phil
 

etn

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With slide film, higher contrast can make the image more difficult to scan. It can be hard to extract all of the shadow detail without blowing out the highlights.
I have been quite successful with applying HDR techniques to DSLR scanning: bracketing, then combining the images in Photoshop. Only disadvantage is that it is work-intensive. Look up any tutorial about HDR imaging, all details are in there. Other software exist besides Photoshop (Aurora HDR seems famous, but I haven’t tried it)

Etienne
 

MattKing

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It depends what you mean when you say "low".
A high contrast negative is harder to scan. Of course, it can also be harder to print optically.
So if you have a scene with a lot of contrast, it can be advantageous to take steps to control that contrast, by increasing the exposure and decreasing the development.
But if the contrast is moderate in the scene, then normal exposure and normal development which yields normal negatives should make your scanner happy.
 

GLS

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I have never once had a frame from any negative film with a range of densities exceeding the dynamic range my D810 could capture. E6 can be more challenging (especially Velvia with its very dense base), but even those can typically be fully captured with one exposure.
 
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A lower contrast scan will allow a scanner that doesn't have great dynamic range to be able to scan through highlights better. As for me, I develop my film for printing on silver gelatin paper with grade 3 paper. Any scanner with decent dynamic range can capture all the detail of a negative without any issues.
 

Kino

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I have never once had a frame from any negative film with a range of densities exceeding the dynamic range my D810 could capture. E6 can be more challenging (especially Velvia with its very dense base), but even those can typically be fully captured with one exposure.

Don't confuse the density of the capture with the scene density/dynamic range represented in the negative by sliver or dyes.

If the negative is developed to a contrast that does not represent the required intermediate tones required for a "good" image, then ten bazillion stops of capture capability on your DSLR is meaningless.

If it isn't on the negative, it won't be on the capture.
 
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alanrockwood

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Don't confuse the density of the capture with the scene density/dynamic range represented in the negative by sliver or dyes.

If the negative is developed to a contrast that does not represent the required intermediate tones required for a "good" image, then ten bazillion stops of capture capability on your DSLR is meaningless.

If it isn't on the negative, it won't be on the capture.
One thing that is overlooked in a lot of these discussions is the effect of film grain. If film grain (as measured by the standard deviation of the image in a pixel-size picture element) is comparable to the digitization step size in the imaging acquisition system, then having a finer step size has a negligible effect on image quality, including the rendering of intermediate tones and the smoothness of the rendering of tones in regions of the image having gradients.
 

runswithsizzers

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One thing that is overlooked in a lot of these discussions is the effect of film grain. If film grain (as measured by the standard deviation of the image in a pixel-size picture element) is comparable to the digitization step size in the imaging acquisition system, then having a finer step size has a negligible effect on image quality, including the rendering of intermediate tones and the smoothness of the rendering of tones in regions of the image having gradients.
Huh?
'film grain (as measured by the standard deviation of the image in a pixel-size picture element)'
'digitization step size'

I would like to be able to understand your point, but those words are just not working for me. Would it be possible to re-state your position using some other words? I do know the definitions for 'standard deviation' and 'pixel' but I can't make any sense out of what you are trying to say.
 

GLS

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Don't confuse the density of the capture with the scene density/dynamic range represented in the negative by sliver or dyes.

If the negative is developed to a contrast that does not represent the required intermediate tones required for a "good" image, then ten bazillion stops of capture capability on your DSLR is meaningless.

If it isn't on the negative, it won't be on the capture.

Forgive me, but I think we are talking at cross purposes. None of what you wrote here is really relevant to the point I was making. I was simply saying that I have never had to use HDR blending of multiple DSLR frames when digitising a frame of negative film in order to fully capture the entire range of densities on the film; a single frame from my D810 always has enough dynamic range (and more to spare) to achieve this. This includes perfectly exposed and developed film.
 

Adrian Bacon

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I have never once had a frame from any negative film with a range of densities exceeding the dynamic range my D810 could capture. E6 can be more challenging (especially Velvia with its very dense base), but even those can typically be fully captured with one exposure.

+1

Let’s keep in mind that 4.0 log density range is just under 13.3 stops, or 13 bits.
 
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alanrockwood

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Huh?
'film grain (as measured by the standard deviation of the image in a pixel-size picture element)'
'digitization step size'

I would like to be able to understand your point, but those words are just not working for me. Would it be possible to re-state your position using some other words? I do know the definitions for 'standard deviation' and 'pixel' but I can't make any sense out of what you are trying to say.
I would be happy to explain further. It may take discussion back and forth to fully explore the point. In the meantime, give me a little time while I prepare something that might help.

In the meantime (yes, that's "in the meantime" twice) This link might help a little.

Sensor noise in film scanner
 
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alanrockwood

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runswithsizzers,

More discussion:

The first thing to consider is that film grain is a form of noise, which in this context means that if I photograph a perfectly featureless blank wall with film, then the exact density from two points on the film cannot be perfectly predicted by knowing the exact density at any other point on the film. That uncertainty is perceived by the viewer as film grain, and it arises from the fact that an image on film is actually composed of silver grains in the emulsion. We don't actually see individual grains when we look at a “grainy” piece of film, but we perceive the image as grainy because of the uneven variation in density at different points on the film.



I used the term “points on the film” rather loosely, just to get the conceptual train of thought started. We don't actually see points on the film, but rather (roughly speaking) our visual field is divided into a series of small very regions (ultimately governed by the size of the rods and cones in our eye) that are put together by the brain to compose the picture.



The same goes for a scanner. The scanner sees the image in terms of pixels, each pixel covering a very small area of the film. A single pixel is what I am referring to as a point on the film, not in the sense of a mathematical point (which covers an infinitesimally small area) but simply as a very small area.



If we take two pixels in the scanned image the values of the pixels will vary in a statistical sense, even if the photographed scene was a perfectly blank featureless wall. A large component of this variability comes from film grain, and because the silver particles are placed in a more or less random pattern in the emulsion it is relatively unpredictable and can therefore be characterized as “noise”. I say “relatively unpredictable” because we might know the average density in a region of film, but in any two pixels there is a degree of unpredictability. That degree of unpredictability can be characterized as a standard deviation. (I am assuming that you know what “standard deviation” means. If not it will require some discussion to capture that concept.)



Now, if the standard deviation is, let us say, four units, and if the step size of the analog to digital converter is, let us say, two units, then that is sufficient to capture virtually all of the information present in the image, i.e. using a detection system with a smaller step size(e.g. one unit of step size) doesn't improve things by any noticeable degree. This is true even if gradients are present in the image.



By the way, I wrote this in terms of density, which strictly speaking is not the best way to discuss the problem because density is a logarithmic function and signal acquisition in a scanner is a linear function, but I think it is good enough to capture the basic idea.



I can go into a more extensive discussion if that would be helpful.
 
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alanrockwood

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runswithsizzers,

Here is some more information. I did a statistical simulation. I set the average signal at 20 units and I set the standard deviation for the grain at 4 units. I simulated two acquisition systems (referred to as perfect ADC with and ADC with a step size of four units). I simulated what you could get reading across part of a row. As the figure shows, there is practically no difference between the two. I doubt if anyone would notice a difference in an actual image.

Comparable figures with an ADC step size of two units or one unit show even less difference between the perfect ADC (which has an infinitely small step size) and an ADC with a finite step size.
image ADC simulation.jpg
 

Kino

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Forgive me, but I think we are talking at cross purposes. None of what you wrote here is really relevant to the point I was making. I was simply saying that I have never had to use HDR blending of multiple DSLR frames when digitising a frame of negative film in order to fully capture the entire range of densities on the film; a single frame from my D810 always has enough dynamic range (and more to spare) to achieve this. This includes perfectly exposed and developed film.

Both of our responses were relevant to the OPs question.
 

PhilBurton

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+1

Let’s keep in mind that 4.0 log density range is just under 13.3 stops, or 13 bits.
I'm not sure I'm following. 13.3 bits RAW file means that many shades of grey. But is that related to the overall dynamic range of the sensor, in terms of f/stops?

On my (very old at this point) Nikon D3, I can shoot uncompressed NEFs of either 12 or 14 bit depth. But I don't think that option affects the dynamic range of the D3's sensor.

Phil Burton
 
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alanrockwood

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I'm not sure I'm following. 13.3 bits RAW file means that many shades of grey. But is that related to the overall dynamic range of the sensor, in terms of f/stops?

Phil Burton

It depends somewhat on what is meant by "dynamic range". The sensor has some noise. (All sensors in the physical world have some noise.) If the sensor noise is substantially less than one bit of the analog to digital converter (ADC) then the dynamic range is set by the minimum and maximum numbers that the ADC can register, which is apparently 13.3 bits in the example you cited. The fractional number for the bits is a bit confusing, but let's not get into that discussion and just round the number down to 13 bits. Since computers use binary numbers that are based on powers of two, 13 bits is equivalent to 13 f/stops.

If the sensor noise is comparable to or larger than the ADC bit size then the discussion becomes much more complex, and there can be several ways to look at the problem. In fact, if the dynamic range is considered as an average over a large area (a patch of featureless sky for example) can actually exceed 13 bits. This is equivalent to so-called "dithering" that is a known technique for extending the effective dynamic range of a signal acquired by an ADC of limited word length. One can even go to a 1 bit ADC format and still get dynamic range equivalent to a 16 bit ADC by oversampling the signal and applying dithering (i.e. noise) to the input of the ADC. This concept has been known for decades in the signal processing world. There are other tricks that can also be applied (some that include feedback, which I believe applies more to time-resolved signals than spatially-resolved signals.), but there is no need to go into all of those.

Please note that film grain and sensor noise have function equivalent to dithering, and from what I have been able to gather/calculate almost any negative film at almost any practical density can be adequately digitized with even an 8 bit digitizer due to the presence of grain in the negative, provided that the true spatial resolution of the scanner is fairly high. (This analysis tends to fall apart if the density of the negative becomes extremely high, in which case wider word lengths can become beneficial.)

There's a lot more that could be discussed, such as non-linear encoding/storage of a signal and other topics, but let me not go into it further at the moment. If there are any signal processing gurus reading this thread please feel free to comment and elaborate upon or correct any of this.
 

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To appreciate that it's possible to literally photograph film grain one should view and print the b&w negative with a point light source...and abandon developers that have sodium sulfite...which chemically dissolves grain.
 
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PhilBurton

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To appreciate that it's possible to literally photograph film grain one should view and print the b&w negative with a point light source...and abandon developers that have sodium sulfite...which chemically dissolves grain.
Ouch! When I was very active with B&W and developing my own film at home, my main developer was Edwal FG-7 with 9% sodium sulfite. Now I regret that. I should have been using something like Rodinal all the time, but I only experimented with it a bit.
 
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I always use the best exposed Velvia 50 or Tmax100 shot to scan with my Epson V600 (dmax 3.6) Supposedly capturing a little more detail in the shadow areas against working with a properly exposed and processed negative or positive film is a waste of time. If you start with crap you'll end with crap. Either with poor definition or poor and faded color. Also, you;ll be able to pull out more shadow area then you think you can using the shadow slider in post.
Velvia https://www.flickr.com/search/?sort...1&tags=velvia&user_id=55760757@N05&view_all=1
Tmax https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157642492618713
 
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