Film coating machine (homemade) on Flickr

anikin · Nov 7, 2012

dwross said:
But, back to the paper. I also have many hundreds of feet of the the paper used for film backing (got it from a film company in Hollywood.) Email me at editor@thelightfarm.com with your address and I'll send you a length of it to try. I think you'll enjoy making your own film. Very satisfyingingly cool.

Denise,

Thank you for your offer. E-mail sent. I just wish I could visit and see in person how you coat your film. I'm sure there are a lot of tricks to learn...

Eugene.

dwross · Nov 7, 2012

You're a hard man, Mr. Mowrey, but these days I just chuckle and move on. I'm having too much fun, and my harshest critic (me) is very satisfied with my progress.

re your workshop: You may want to reword the course description. It reads "...This is a silver bromide emulsion suitable for coating developed out printing paper or plates to be used in the camera..."

I would take that to mean students will be putting their emulsion on paper and glass (i.e. dry plate.) But if it's just emulsion making without a coating and processing component, it would probably be best to spell that out.

dwross · Nov 7, 2012

anikin said:
Denise,

Thank you for your offer. E-mail sent. I just wish I could visit and see in person how you coat your film. I'm sure there are a lot of tricks to learn...

Eugene.

We'll have to make that a date after the Rainy Season! If nothing else, I'm thinking about something insane like an Open Studio Saturday with demos sometime early summer 2013. I'm hoping that could be a fun and useful addition to the web tutorials I'm trying to pull together by New Year's. But, typing here won't get it done!

Best of luck and fun,
d

anikin · Nov 7, 2012

dwross said:
We'll have to make that a date after the Rainy Season! If nothing else, I'm thinking about something insane like an Open Studio Saturday with demos sometime early summer 2013. I'm hoping that could be a fun and useful addition to the web tutorials I'm trying to pull together by New Year's. But, typing here won't get it done!

Best of luck and fun,
d

What a great idea! Let me know if you need help with organizing that.

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2012

I hope you all have fun at the Open Studio Saturday.

As for being hard, I am merely being accurate in terms of "might" vs "will" in what I write. As for the workshop, it is intended to be very comprehensive. Please note that it is 4 days long, not 3. And, common sense would tell us that making an emulsion and then doing nothing with it would not be very useful. Of course we will expose by a variety of methods and then process the exposed materials.

We made a batch of the emulsion last week here at my home for testing, and we are training two interns to work with us during the workshop, which we expect to be a big success. The person in the photograph is from the west coast and is an avid photographer.

AAMOF, I have a lot of 120 coating and "packaging" material here, but I do believe that 4x5 plates and films have a very big future in analog photography, both manufactured and do it yourself. One of the big problems with 120 is, as you say Denise, edge fog. Real 120 backing is feathered along the edge and is overwidth to prevent fogging. Take a look at real 120 paper and you will see what I mean.

No Kodachrome yet though!

We are pretty far off topic.

PE

kb3lms · Nov 7, 2012

For backing paper, try Pacon 57305 Fadeless Art Paper, 48" x 50' roll, Black. You can get it from Amazon or any number of other places fairly cheap. A roll should last a long time.

It is an opaque 20lb paper, like stadard white office paper, black on one side and white on the other. One layer will pass some light but two will not. You cut strips to the same shape and size as a manufactured backing paper and put the black side towards the film and the white side out. You can write frame numbers and whatever else you like on the white side. Put a layer of scotch tape around the ends where they fasten to the spools as the paper is not as strong as regular backing paper and will tear if you don't give some reinforcement but that was the only strength problem I have had.

I have changed homemade several 620 size rolls in room light with no problem. (The emulsion used was a batch of TLF#2 @ ISO ~20.) I had no issues with the red frame number window on the camera but the emulsion was not spectrally sensitized, either. There were no problems with edge fog.

-- Jason

kb3lms · Nov 7, 2012

Grain

IDK about being able to produce acceptable grain for smaller sizes. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I take scraps from my 120 size coatings and cut them up as sigle size 35mm frames. The grain is certainly noticeable, but not that bad. "Front Flower Bed" is my favorite 35mm example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jmljo9oh57utf14/FrontFlowerBed.jpg

This was scanned on my Nikon LS-40 through Vuescan. It's been printed as an 8x10 and the grain is OK. Being non-modern film it is a little hard to print, though, and I don't feel that I've gotten a really good print but that's OT.

It seems logical to me that as we all gain more experience the emulsions will get better. What is important is for all of us trying these things to keep posting / sharing what we learn.

-- Jason

kb3lms · Nov 7, 2012

Yesterday at GEH I actually got to lay eyes on an old Kodak perforater ...... in the labs down here I've come across these two little film splitters with stickers that say RIT on them. They are for splitting 4" film down to 35mm, and the other is for splitting 35mm down to 16mm....

Hey Chris,

Could you snap some pictures of these gadgets? It would be great to see what they look like.

Now, as far as punching is concerned, making a small punching block may be harder than you think. One of my projects that has held up my emulsion work was trying to punch 35mm because that is what I ultimately want, too. I was trying to punch acetate with 6 pairs of holes spaced for 35mm. Have not yet tried PET but I would expect it to be harder to do. Issues I came across:

1) Quite a bit of pressure is required to punch more than about 6 holes so you need a fixture with some leverage. I would expect PET would need more pressure.

2) Hanging chads are a real problem and they are hard to avoid without having to cut them off manually. Chads may be less of a problem with PET.

3) Round holes did not work reliably in any (Pentax SLR) camera I tried. Lot's of problems with jamming. You need a rectangular hole but I don't think it needs to exactly match the ANSI spec. There is some tolerance.

I had no real machining tools to do this and was just working with a dremel tool, nails (with the point cut off and then modified with a v-notch in the face) for the pins and aluminum for the die. So, I am not saying it cannot be done, these were just some issues that I found.

-- Jason

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2012

Jason, that photo is quite good, but I can see the grain. Did you notice that there was quite a bit of flare as well? This would need a good AH dye or absorber dye. And, unfortunately would cost you up to 1 stop in speed. This increases the speed / grain ratio even more than I mentioned in my previous post.

Just FYI, the attached item shows how we make emulsions, coat film, and do the final operations of slitting, chopping, perfing and spooling. My thanks to the unknown artist who did this.

PE

Mr Bill · Nov 7, 2012

Originally Posted by Steve Smith

The rotating dies method is the way to go if you are doing a lot of film and want to run fast. The flat die method would be easier for a hand operated, low quantity production run.

AgX said:
The funny thing is that it is just the other way round the industry does it...

Actually it would be even harder to achieve high precision with rotating tools.

AgX, the system I saw used rotary dies - they were trying to get out of the "flat die" method, which nevertheless was also used for automatic high production use. It's just that the advantages of the rotary system made it worthwhile; there is no risk of rubbing against machinery - with a rotary system, the moving film web can just "kiss" against the punch/die set which is moving at the same speed. Note that this was some years ago, when professional film production was probably at a peak.

kb3lms · Nov 7, 2012

Hi PE, that frame was scanned at 2900 dpi or whatever the Nikon does so you get the warts and all. Optically printed at 8x10, it looks about like Tri-X. I consider this to be a starting point. At least this batch did not go through the spoiling dept like the last one.

The flare is what makes it different! Seriously, I have some thoughts on AH, but as you say they all would cost speed.

Brian C. Miller · Nov 7, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Just FYI, the attached item shows how we make emulsions, coat film, and do the final operations of slitting, chopping, perfing and spooling. My thanks to the unknown artist who did this.

The art style looks like it was done by one of the "usual gang of idiots" at Mad Magazine. The one I'm thinking about did the last page in the magazine, before the "fold-up" page.

(Memorable: man walking down the street past various shops and signs: "Phonebone's Glasses" with a huge pair of glasses, "Phonebone's Umbrellas" with a huge umbrella, "Phonebone's Wigs" with a huge wig, "Phonebone's Bandanas" with a huge bandana, "Phonebone's Shoes" with a huge pair of shoes. Then the fellow rounds the corner and there's a giant standing there wearing the glasses, holding the umbrella, wearing the wig and shoes, and the bandana is wrapped around his waist. Another sign reads, "Phonebone.")

Mr Bill · Nov 7, 2012

kb3lms said:
Now, as far as punching is concerned, making a small punching block may be harder than you think. ... Issues I came across:
...
2) Hanging chads are a real problem and they are hard to avoid without having to cut them off manually. Chads may be less of a problem with PET.
...
3) Round holes did not work reliably in any (Pentax SLR) camera I tried. Lot's of problems with jamming. You need a rectangular hole but I don't think it needs to exactly match the ANSI spec. There is some tolerance.

I had no real machining tools to do this and was just working with a dremel tool, nails (with the point cut off and then modified with a v-notch in the face) for the pins and aluminum for the die. So, I am not saying it cannot be done, these were just some issues that I found.

Jason, thanks for the reality check. These are some of the issues I would expect. I think the solution to "hanging chads" is in extraordinary precision in the centering and clearance between punch and die. I'd guess that the speed of the punch is also a factor, as might be use of a high vacuum below the die set.

Re: round holes: I don't think these are at all desirable for film transport (in cameras, etc). But "round" makes it simpler for a home machine shop to make punch and die sets, and to have these precision-aligned (within reason). It wouldn't be necessary to have the rotational alignment near perfect, as it would be with rectangular punches.

I'm sure it can be done, I'm just saying the reality is a lot more difficult than it appears.

Steve Smith · Nov 7, 2012

Something we are about to experiment with at work for cutting 0.125mm polyester is a chemical etched tool. This might be suitable for small scale perforation punching and would be cheaper than a traditional male and female die set and probably cheaper than a steel rule die.

Everything you ever wanted to know about cutting tools but weren't interested enough to ask: http://www.dieco.com/index.php/ddin-library/37-options-to-consider-in-diecutting

Steve.

Photo Engineer · Nov 7, 2012

AFAIK, Kodak made or had made for them, custom perfing and slitting and chopping equipment. The dies were replaced on a regular basis. The ones I saw were rotary.

The cartoon style is Don Martin.

And Jason, yes, we lose speed and that is why I said that this puts us in a worse position for speed/grain. We would probably turn an ISO 100 material with TriX grain into an ISO 25 - 50 material with TriX grain. Then the question is, is this suitable for 35mm. Probably not. For 120, probably but maybe marginal. For 4x5? Probably just right. But, IDK until I do the experiments. I have the AH dye here. It is an Oxonol dye that dissolves in developer.

PE

Dark Orange · Nov 8, 2012

Steve Smith said:
Something we are about to experiment with at work for cutting 0.125mm polyester is a chemical etched tool. This might be suitable for small scale perforation punching and would be cheaper than a traditional male and female die set and probably cheaper than a steel rule die.

*POP*

Laser cutter - probably fiddly to set up, but would be quite simple once you got going. (For hobbyist quantities, that is)

*/pop*

Steve Smith · Nov 8, 2012

Dark Orange said:
Laser cutter - probably fiddly to set up, but would be quite simple once you got going. (For hobbyist quantities, that is)

Except that it would fog the film!

Steve.

Athiril · Nov 8, 2012

michaelbsc said:
For myself, if I were coating I would likely be targeting 120 size. Then the issue becomes a stable backing paper which doesn't interact with the film instead of how to punch holes.

For what is likely not going to be as good as Plus-X or FP4, I suspect a homemade emulsion would benefit greatly from the larger negative size.

Stable, chemically inert backing paper isn't so easy, however. About the cheapest I ever saw was the stuff on the Shanghai GP3 Chinese film. It seemed almost like children's construction paper. Then you have to print numbers which are chemically inert.

None of this is impossible, but it sure isn't trivial.

I agree, but why would you NEED to print numbers? In any case, the film sleeving etc we have here for uncut film up to 120 and also bigger sleeving for rolled large prints is outsourced to a local plastics company, you could get such things (backing paper) by local industry, with frame numbers.

The issue I see there is cutting the paper in the right place and attaching the film. And if there would be a feasible way to have the process of 120 somewhat semi-automated instead of one roll at a time by hand.

Steve Smith said:
Except that it would fog the film!

Steve.

A laser is a collimated conherent beam, cutting would be done perpendicular. It would need a lot of particles to scatter off (such as steam or fog )

Steve Smith · Nov 8, 2012

Athiril said:
A laser is a collimated conherent beam, cutting would be done perpendicular. It would need a lot of particles to scatter off

I'm sure that if I tried to cut film on our laser (assuming I could put it in a dark room) it would fog it. There is a lot of light reflecting off of the substrate being cut and lots of flat panels to reflect it back.

Athiril said:
such as steam or fog

Or smoke?!

Steve.

Photo Engineer · Nov 8, 2012

If you can see a laser from the side, it is being scattered. If you can see it, be sure to put your goggles on!

Even if it worked, such as by using a far IR laser, the melted support may be a problem.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 9, 2012

Making a male female gear couples or laser are fantasy. Best way is to use printing press house expertise. Rotogravure printing press houses print their subject on everykind of thick paper or plastic. These papers or plastics layups as hundreds of sheets at the end of the press machine. They have to cut and folded at too many applications at binding houses.

An expert binder get ordered with a computer output cutting pattern. Every binder have a man who prepares cutting patterns with folding thin sheets of steel and nail one end of these folded steel on to wooden board and other end sharp and free.

When you put this board on to papers or plastics and press from the top , folded steel cuts the thick several hundreds of papers like an butter.

And these guys are busy and get many orders per day. And they are cheap.

May be best way is to cut 1 meter long polyester bases for 35mm film and lay a 100 meters long film as 100*1 meter lay up and get cut at binder house for sprockets. And after all coat these sheets. No dark is needed , you can clean the cut pieces by hand .

Umut

Steve Smith · Nov 9, 2012

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Making a male female gear couples or laser are fantasy.

How can it be fantasy when such things exist?

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
An expert binder get ordered with a computer output cutting pattern. Every binder have a man who prepares cutting patterns with folding thin sheets of steel and nail one end of these folded steel on to wooden board and other end sharp and free.

When you put this board on to papers or plastics and press from the top , folded steel cuts the thick several hundreds of papers like an butter.

I think you are trying to describe a steel rule die. It's a bit more accurate than you are making out. The base is laser cut and the cutting die is inserted into it.

We use them to cut polyester and polycarbonate.

http://escutters.co.uk/

Steve.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 9, 2012

When you aim to things you can not afford , its fantasy. Do you know the cost of cutting four gear from steel , align at a base and rotate them when you are feeding the film with many other gear train. Its hell of money. Its like you wanted to buy a mini , it is expensive and you want to build SAME !!! factory to own a mini.

MartinP · Nov 9, 2012

People were mentioning backing paper numbers on 120. Surely 220 only has leader/footer paper at the ends - so why not for 120v2 as well, and using a camera without a red-window of course. This is all a bit of an academic exercise though, for general use at least.

Steve Smith · Nov 9, 2012

The reality is that punching perforations in the film and finding suitable backing paper are fairly trivial things when compared with making and coating the emulsion.

I think the trick is to use people's skills. One person on his or her own might struggle to do it all but a few people with different skills might do it.

e.g. I am interested in emulsion making but will probably never do it myself. However, I'm sure that I could make a coating machine and a simple jig to cut perforations if someone else wants to coat the film.

EDIT: That wasn't an offer to do it, just a hypothetical scenario!

Steve.

Film coating machine (homemade) on Flickr

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