film base problem with Ilford Hp5 4x5

tfalk · Feb 11, 2013

Hello,
I have intermittently experienced a change in the surface of the base on Ilford HP5 4x5 film. Instead of it being very glossy, there appears to be an almost matte surface. Its very disconcerting. I will sometimes get a nice glossy base side, but more often get more of a matte look. I used to use TX and I never experienced this in 35 years. Both films processed exactly the same way, exactly at 67 degrees. Same Sprint Stop and Sprint Fix. The one difference is that instead of d76 i am now using hc110 with the ilford film. This matte issue doesnt always happen. Any ideas?

markbarendt · Feb 11, 2013

You might send your question to Ilford. http://ilfordphoto.com/contactform.asp

Sirius Glass · Feb 11, 2013

tFalk welcome to APUG. I agree that you should send your question to Ilford. Perhaps Simon R Galley who works for Ilford and posts on APUG will answer a PM for you.

Simon R Galley · Feb 12, 2013

Dear tFalk,

We have had no change in the structure of the base support of HP5+ sheet film, nor in its coating ( its coated front and back ).

If you have a standard processing procedure it should always look the same.

A common cause of 'matting' is water held deposits ( hard water areas typically ) or remnants of photoflo, I obviously cannot say this is the cause as I have not seen the neg(s). Typically the emulsion side of the neg should be matt and the reverse glossy.

If you have any concern you can send an example of the film to us to our technical service at Mobberley in the UK and they will examine your film and reply to you.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Ian Grant · Feb 12, 2013

Differences in temperature during processing affect the surface of the gelatin and will cause this, it's important to keep your process cycle constant throughout including washing.

Ian

MartinP · Feb 12, 2013

Was there a change in your final rinse perhaps? Say from tap-water to demineralised, or with/without a surfactant? Or drying in a different orientation or temperature/humidity? It will probably be something like that, or a combination of factors.

jeffreyg · Feb 12, 2013

I agree with Simon Galley it is most likely the water probably calcium carbonate deposits. A simple way to check would be to take a reject negative and wipe the matte affected surface with an acid solution or a household lime deposit cleaner. If it corrects it, it's most likely the the water. Installing a cartridge filter in the water line can help.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

John Wiegerink · Feb 12, 2013

I don't know if this makes a difference, but I live in a small town with a water treatment plant and every so often I can tell when they are treating a batch. They soften and chlorinate and for a day or so afterwards the water will have a heavy chlorine smell. I have a series of filters in my darkroom system, but still don't do any processing at that time. I'm curious to see what this problem might be. JohnW

Vaughn · Feb 12, 2013

How are you developing the negs? Drum, trays, hangers?

I was having similar problems with FP4 in expert drums -- solved it by using a fix without hardened (was using Kodak Rapid Fix, so I left out Part B). My best guess on why is that the antihalation layer was slow to be removed since the back of the film touches the drum. The hardener then hardened or reacted with the remaining antihalation layer.

Just a guess -- I am just happy that the fixer w/o hardener solved the problem...whatever the problem actually was.

Vaughn

George Collier · Feb 12, 2013

I have used 120 films from both Kodak and Ilford for years, and I find that, at least with this format, the Ilford films usually exhibit this more "matte" surface, while Kodak's are always glossy, or shiny.
It seems to have no effect on printing, so I don't let it bother me. I say "usually" because I no longer pay attention to it, and am using exclusively Ilford film now.

tfalk · Feb 12, 2013

I tried to clean the matt surface with an acid solution, but it made no difference. It does not look like a deposit- more like pitting into the gelatin.

markbarendt · Feb 12, 2013

So are you going to send a sheet to Ilford?

tfalk · Feb 13, 2013

yes, i mailed a sheet yesterday. Thanks for everyones input; it will be interesting to see what they say.

Simon R Galley · Feb 14, 2013

If you mailed us a sheet it will be tested ( hope you sent us the batch number from the box as well ):

You will get one of three replies ( and a full written explanation )

1 ) Justified : a problem exists with that sample

2 ) Cause not certain : where we cannot identify the issue even after a full examination or cannot replicate* the sample

( *We keep samples of all the batches of film and paper we produce for up to 5 years, that way we can process 'the control' to see if we can replicate an issue )

3 ) Not justified, essentially the product is fine, it has happened during or post exposure.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

tfalk · Feb 14, 2013

thank you Simon, for looking into this for me. Unfortunately, I did not include the batch number, but I feel it doesnt pertain to this particular matter, since the problem has repeatedly happened with different emulsion batches.

George Collier · Feb 14, 2013

Simon - I may send you a sample of some 120 film, either FP4, or one of the Deltas. Mine always come out with some kind of non-glossy finish, not that it seems to bother anything.
I'll wait till I shoot a roll that I still have the box for, and include it with the film.

Simon R Galley · Feb 14, 2013

Dear George,

On the emulsion side of the film or on the other side?

Is it an even surface tone or is it variable ?

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

tfalk · Feb 25, 2014

I did send samples to Ilford and they looked at them under a microscope and it appeared to be a form of reticulation on the base side. They informed me that I should not presoak the film, which I was concerned about, but I went ahead and they were right, the problem went away. The base side now looks very shiny.

markbarendt · Feb 25, 2014

Cool, glad there was an answer.

Simonh82 · Feb 25, 2014

Thanks for feeding back. It is nice to see the outcome of this type of query and good that Ilford were able to offer a practical solution.

dpurdy · Feb 25, 2014

Yes I just went through the same problem last month with the Hp5 8x10 and solved it by not pre soaking, which I do with everything.
Now I am using some 8x10 Fp4 and without a pre soak I got mottling. I went back to pre soaking and with Fp4 see none of the problem I had with Hp5.
whatever works.
Dennis

Sirius Glass · Feb 25, 2014

tfalk said:
I did send samples to Ilford and they looked at them under a microscope and it appeared to be a form of reticulation on the base side. They informed me that I should not presoak the film, which I was concerned about, but I went ahead and they were right, the problem went away. The base side now looks very shiny.

Thank you for following up with the feedback.

film base problem with Ilford Hp5 4x5

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