Fiber or resin coated, variable contrast or graded?

Way, way too many papers to choose from. I'm not complaining, but as I'm just beginning the choice seems a bit daunting.

From the standpoint of someone who is a beginner, there are some questions. Is there any benefit to going with RC over fiber for learning other than the price? If I would go with graded paper, should I choose ONE paper and have multiple grades of it available for use? Are there any papers that are better than others for a beginner? Can anyone tell me where the Ilford Multigrade 10x10 paper is actually available in the states?

At the moment I'm thinking of buying a package of the 10x10 Ilford Multigrade VC RC (if I can find it) for printing my 6x6 negatives on and a package of 8x10 for the 35mm (I'm planning to cut it down to 5x8).

And yes, I know I'll get more answers to this than there are lenses at Jim Galli's place...but I figure it wouldn't hurt to get some feedback.

rc is easier to learn with,
it takes no time to put the paper through the chemistry
and see the end results, dry.
you can contact print or enlarge,
learn the use of filters, and all
the stuff you can do with fiber paper, at less of an expense, with rc.
photowarehouse used to have rc and fiber paper that was very inexpensive,
they might be a good resource to keep handy. ( they are an advertiser here ).

have fun!
john

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...0x10&at=Brand_Ilford&basicSubmit=Submit+Query
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...=10x10+sheets&ci=890&basicSubmit=Submit+Query

B&H carries 10x10 inch paper.

Hmm, this is from a non-master printer.

Go with VC RC paper. It lets you learn more and learn quickly, since you don't have to deal with the extended washing, etc. VC lets you play around with your contrast more (obviously) which is a nice knob to turn.

I know some say don't buy an expensive pack of paper at first because you'll waste a lot at first. I don't think Ilford MG IV RC is that expensive - you most likely will NOT waste 75 sheets before you get a print that you are happy with. Maybe 5 or so And if you get a known quantity like Ilford MG, then you know that certain problems that might occur are NOT the paper's fault.

I don't know if 10x10 paper is actually something that is readily stocked. Maybe go 11x14 and cut it down to 11x11 or just do smaller prints on 8x10. Use the strips for test strips. I personally like 35mm full frame on 8x10 - it gives it a nice working border of blank paper.

So, I'd recommend Ilford MG IV RC 8x10. There's often times promotional sets with either a couple rolls of film or a set of Multigrade filters. I'd go with Pearl, but thats just me (actually, I really like the Satin finish).

A pack of small paper, either 5x7 or 3.5x5 or the 4x6 postcard paper is fun too. The latter two will print 35mm full frame with no wasted paper.

Ilford MGIV RC is a perfectly good paper to learn with. You'll get results quickly and be able to figure out all the basics of contrast control, dodging, and burning without having to worry too much about drydown and dealing with archival washing, longer drying times, print flattening and such.

Then once you've exposed one or two hundred sheets, think about the other options. Personally, I prefer graded fiber based papers in general.

the main advantage with the use of RC VC papers is the ability to change contrast easily, as negatives seem to bounce all over the place.

for my own work i only use graded fiber papers, however, i have tested my equipment and make my negatives to fit a specific paper grade and like fiber papers.

with my students i recommend RC VC papers and as they gain more experience and confidence many deside to move to fiber papers but very few use graded papers and stay with VC.

Hi Stephanie
I say go with the paper you like. Graded paper is great to print with and you often need just grades 2 and 3. Todays variable contrast papers are very good also. If you plan to use fiber as the final product, use fiber for testing and learning. Fiber looks, feels and prints differant than the same paper in RC.
I feel it is better to learn on paper with out developer incorporated emulsions. Start with one paper and learn it before you try another. Also, establish a test procedure for testing papers. Make or pick a few negitives of differant lighting, film types, etc. to test differant papers as you progress. That way you learn the strenghts and weakness of the "tools" of our craft. Have a plan. Hope this helps.
Michael

Stephanie Brim said:

Way, way too many papers to choose from. I'm not complaining, but as I'm just beginning the choice seems a bit daunting.

From the standpoint of someone who is a beginner, there are some questions. Is there any benefit to going with RC over fiber for learning other than the price? If I would go with graded paper, should I choose ONE paper and have multiple grades of it available for use? Are there any papers that are better than others for a beginner? Can anyone tell me where the Ilford Multigrade 10x10 paper is actually available in the states?

At the moment I'm thinking of buying a package of the 10x10 Ilford Multigrade VC RC (if I can find it) for printing my 6x6 negatives on and a package of 8x10 for the 35mm (I'm planning to cut it down to 5x8).

And yes, I know I'll get more answers to this than there are lenses at Jim Galli's place...but I figure it wouldn't hurt to get some feedback.

Click to expand...

Stephanie Brim said:

Way, way too many papers to choose from. I'm not complaining, but as I'm just beginning the choice seems a bit daunting.

From the standpoint of someone who is a beginner, there are some questions. Is there any benefit to going with RC over fiber for learning other than the price? If I would go with graded paper, should I choose ONE paper and have multiple grades of it available for use? Are there any papers that are better than others for a beginner? Can anyone tell me where the Ilford Multigrade 10x10 paper is actually available in the states?

At the moment I'm thinking of buying a package of the 10x10 Ilford Multigrade VC RC (if I can find it) for printing my 6x6 negatives on and a package of 8x10 for the 35mm (I'm planning to cut it down to 5x8).

And yes, I know I'll get more answers to this than there are lenses at Jim Galli's place...but I figure it wouldn't hurt to get some feedback.

Click to expand...

Each option has advantages and disadvantages, RC needs less time in the fixer and less washing, and tends to lie flatter. FB is considered by many more archival, although others argue that this is no longer the case. FB paper supposedly will get people to take you more seriously, although no FB colour paper is currently being made, as far as I know this has been the case for many years.

Multi-grade paper obviously has the advantage that instead of buying 20 sheets each of 5 grades of paper you can buy 100 sheets of multi-grade paper at a lower cost per sheet. Obviously you don't find that you need a grade you don't have.

You may find that it's a lot cheaper to cut 8x10 to 8x8 then to buy 8x8 or 10x10 paper. You can cut 8x10 into 2 sheets of 5x8 and 4 sheets of 4x5.

I agree with everyone that RC and variable contrast is the way to go. Many master printers use VC papers. Unless you are using sheet film or multiple backs on medium format, the scene contrast will vary from frame to frame on roll film no matter how carefully you control development.

The most important thing is that you get paper that is inexpensive enough that you don't mind throwing out a lot of prints. If you can afford that with the Ilford RC, that would be my first recommendation. I use it and the fiber version and I like it a lot. Then on the other hand, Freestyle's Arista papers are close to half the price and very good. You'll learn more by printing twice as much

I'll disagree with the others and recommend you start with fiber vc. People will argue the point, but I think fiber papers respond better and look better, are easier to spot, and have a much greater variety of processing options (color, base, degree of toning, etc.,). I think fiber papers are actually easier to print with although it does take a few extra processing steps and longer wash. But, your work will look better on fiber and isn't that really what you're after-the best looking print you can get?

Sure, RC is more convenient and cheaper, but the results are also very inferior IMO. (If I wanted convenient, I'd be shooting digital instead of wetplate, but convenient isn't what I'm after.)

Ilford Multigrade Warmtone Fiber would be a versatile paper to start with.

I've been making 10x10s from 12x16 (FOMA) paper recently. It leaves an inch border all around with a 4" strip to run tests.

Joe

Ilford MG FB warmtone. You won't know what you're missing otherwise.
If that sounds like a plug, that's because it is. This paper is so versatile, it's incredible. The difficulties of fibre based paper lie mostly in the drying, and that is solved back-to-back.

RC VC, because if you learn to really use it to its capabilities, you will both have very good prints, and the ability to get the benefit out other options as well.

There is nothing that will benefit your printing more than more printing, and carefully analyzing the results. The conveniences inherent in RC VC will allow you to print more, and if you are careful and attentive, learn more.

If you have the sorts of luxuries that come with a permanent, fully equipped darkroom (such as print washers, drying screens and the like) and the time and opportunity to get full use of them, the fiber option may be more viable.

Matt

Stephanie Brim said:

Way, way too many papers to choose from. I'm not complaining, but as I'm just beginning the choice seems a bit daunting.

From the standpoint of someone who is a beginner, there are some questions. Is there any benefit to going with RC over fiber for learning other than the price? If I would go with graded paper, should I choose ONE paper and have multiple grades of it available for use? Are there any papers that are better than others for a beginner? Can anyone tell me where the Ilford Multigrade 10x10 paper is actually available in the states?

At the moment I'm thinking of buying a package of the 10x10 Ilford Multigrade VC RC (if I can find it) for printing my 6x6 negatives on and a package of 8x10 for the 35mm (I'm planning to cut it down to 5x8).

And yes, I know I'll get more answers to this than there are lenses at Jim Galli's place...but I figure it wouldn't hurt to get some feedback.

Click to expand...

As someone who has been making prints for around 55 years, a good number of them professionally, I would say start with a top-quality variable-contrast RC paper, which if processed correctly (in particular, developed for the full recommended time of 1.5 to 2 minutes, not pulled prematurely or forced for 5 minutes!) delivers results very close to FB. RC will not retouch (spot) as easily as FB and does not tone as well. but for a beginner, VC RC demonstrates very clearly the effect of switching grades, allows split-grade printing and above all can be processed correctly with makeshift equipment - I would say using FB paper is utterly pointless unless you have an archival print washer, and these are bulky and expensive. I would recommend starting with some pearl-surface RC paper, what you learn with this can easily be applied to printing with unglazed FB glossy later if you wish.

Most important of all - as a beginner, do NOT repeat NOT buy "bargain" paper, either cheap/unknown brands or outdated premium paper. One of the first things you need to learn as a printer is what a good maximum black looks like and how paper reacts to contrast filter changes - cheapo paper will certainly be less than optimum in this respect and may behave in a very odd way due to age-related deterioriation. This will confuse a beginner utterly - you need to develop the highest possible mental quality standards, and bad paper will make it impossible to achieve these. And DON'T let anyone tell you RC paper is inferior - I've printed alongside some true darkroom masters (including the people at Ilford Limited in the 1970s who were making specimen prints to show Ilford paper in the best possible light) and have seen what can be achieved with RC.

The permanent darkroom won't be finished for about a year, so RC probably is the best bet. I could make a print washer pretty easily, but the drying would probably cause problems. At the moment I'm trying to figure out where it would be best to dry the prints while I don't have the whole thing done.

Deciding which paper, though, is going to be harder. The Arista EDU Ultra looks good, but so does the Arista II. And then there's Varycon, which seems to be popular, and Kentmere Select, and Adox...

I figure that I'll start with a 100 sheet box of paper and go through that. I should probably go with 8x10.

Hi Stephanie -

Of the ones you mention, I would suggest Arista II. It is a very good paper with a crisp white base, and gives good blacks. It is made by Kentmere and is the same paper they sell. I have had problems with Arista EDU Ultra fogging in OC safelights. The Arista EDU "Fine Lustre" looks just like Ilford MG Pearl finish. It is a nice and capable paper, but is slightly more contrasty than most.

Stephanie Brim said:

The permanent darkroom won't be finished for about a year, so RC probably is the best bet. I could make a print washer pretty easily, but the drying would probably cause problems. At the moment I'm trying to figure out where it would be best to dry the prints while I don't have the whole thing done.

Click to expand...

For RC paper, up to 8x10" or so, you can hang them with cloth pins in the shower/bathroom to dry. And that's the beauty of the RC paper because they will stay flat. With FB, because they curl so much as they dry you have to come up a different method, like using a drying rack and putting your prints faced down on dryng nets/screens, etc.

Good luck.

Of the last few papers you mention considering, I also vote for the Arista II. It prints detail very sharp. I use it for proof sheets and some prints.

Mainly I print on graded paper, because I find it easier to make good prints on it. A negative that would look best only on a 1/2 plus, minus, or whole number VC seems to print easily on a whole grade paper—i.e. the graded paper seems to have more latitude. Of these, my current favorites are Kentmere, and Slavich single weight, cost aside.

Ultimately, print on the paper you like.

I think I'm going to try the Kentmere Select as my first printing paper. It seems to be about middle of the road price-wise. I'll be using Liquidol. I won't be toning yet I don't think.

It depends what kind of beginner you are... If you already know how to make test strips, can consistently judge a good exposure and know how to dodge and burn, then I'd say you're ready for FB.
If you can't do one the above with confidence, then stick with RC until you can. Otherwise, you're wasting money trying to establish basic skills.

Stick with VC papers to begin with, too. Once you've decided on a specific paper, carry on using it exclusively for a while - it will help you to establish a consistent method. And, once you have consolidated your method, you can begin to experiment with other papers with greater confidence and insight.

Kentmere Select is an excellent choice, it's made under exacting quality control and you can, therefore, count on it being consistent from one box to the next.

Consistency is the magic word - When you've reached the point where you're doing the things on 'automatic pilot' (like moving between the dev, stop and fix correctly without any apparent effort and judging good exposure etc), then you're probably ready for FB. In my opinion, going for FB too soon is wasteful. The archival quality of RC, if correctly processed, isn't bad and, besides, do you really want to save every test strip and work print for posterity? Honestly, if you're serious about photography and start to save everything, you'll be looking for a new home in less than one year.

Treat your early efforts as part of a learning process - value the process but try not to get hung up on every single print, they're just stages on the way. Printing is a craft skill and it takes time as well as the will to learn. Archive the knowledge, don't fret about the prints you made on the way.

Having said all this, there is the opposite view - that you should only use the best materials from the start. I think it only holds in circumstances where there is no alternative. Whatever the detractors say, RC is extremely good these days. OK it responds less well to toning etc, but that's a long way down the line for a beginner. There's little point toning prints if you can't produce reasonably consistent results. (Beware of the gremlin that tells you to tone a boring image, to make it look "more interesting". You're just substituting it with a boring toned image, instead. If it doesn't work in B&W, it probably won't work any better in sepia either).

Similarly, I've seen many poorly executed prints on FB. Using FB doesn't by itself guarantee excellent results - it merely offers the potential. I have, on the other hand, seen many superb prints on RC.

Best Wishes
Jerry

I don't mind using expired film and old cameras, but when it comes to printing I never skimp on the materials. I do occasionally try a batch of 'cheap' paper from fellow photographers, paper that might be expired, but only for fun. If you're serious about your printing, buy the best you can afford.
I think the trick to becoming a very good printer is to use a standard paper and learn how to treat different looking negatives to get the optimum results. I'm sure the Kentmere paper will be fine, and if you learn how to master that paper, I think you'll find it difficult to do a LOT better on any other paper.
The RC versus FB debate will prevail, there will always be opinions. I prefer fiber, but that's just my opinion. I find that I try harder when I have more expensive materials, and I also find that I like how fiber prints feel better than RC prints - Pepsi challenge tests aside.

If you want to print on RC to begin with, then do yourself a favor and print on fiber at some point in the future too. Give it a fair chance, and then compare to see what you like best. You owe yourself that, in order to find out what you like best.

Graded versus variable contrast - I prefer graded paper. But that's only because I don't have to mess around with filtration and all techniques associated with them. I find it more straight forward, and I focus more on the content of the print that way than how the grayscale, white, and black looks. That's how I work. With that said, I have a whole mess of VC paper that I need to use up...

Good luck finding what's right for you. I think you are well on your way!

- Thomas

Stephanie Brim said:

I think I'm going to try the Kentmere Select as my first printing paper. It seems to be about middle of the road price-wise. I'll be using Liquidol. I won't be toning yet I don't think.

Click to expand...

I have been told Arista.Edu Ultra is the same paper. I have used that for all my RC work and am very pleased. Not only is the price right but I have found it to be the paper that just work consistently for my processing

YMMV


TR

Yeah, string up some twine in the bathroom (I went from a towel rack to the shower head) and just use clothespins and clip the RC papers by the corner. When I go in for printing in the school's darkroom, the last of my prints are usually dry (and flat!) by the time I finish rinsing out the trays and putting away the equipment.

Someday (soon hopefully) when I have my own darkroom I'll get into fiber, but for now RC really is more convenient when you have only have limited access/room to print in.

For temporary/marginal darkroom space go with RC and don't look back. I like the look of fiber better, thus I use it for prints that I want to put on the wall, but otherwise it's RC.

As for longevity, it may still be an open question, IDK, but none of us will be alive long enough to know if a properly processed RC print made today on current materials will last longer or shorter than a properly processed fiber print.

The English Arista, or Kentmere should be just fine. For me, the Kentmere behaves very similarly to Ilford MG.

trexx said:

I have been told Arista.Edu Ultra is the same paper. I have used that for all my RC work and am very pleased. Not only is the price right but I have found it to be the paper that just work consistently for my processing

YMMV


TR

Click to expand...

Aren't all the Arista.Edu Ultra products Foma?

The key to learning to print is to do a lot of it. With RC paper, you can print faster and at a much lower cost, allowing you to play around more in the darkroom, to try different interpretations of negative,...to learn. In the long run, you will probably end up printing on fibre based paper, but you will get to the point of making a great print on FB paper faster if you do a great deal of printing on RC paper first.

Also, Christian Photography in DM sells Illford RC papers, cool tone, neutral and warm tone.