Ferrotyping?

mfohl · Nov 22, 2016

Hello Folks, just a curiosity question here. Does anybody out there ferrotype their fiber prints?

Tnx,

-- Mark

wiltw · Nov 22, 2016

A very long time ago photographic paper had the gelatin coating of the emulsion, which was a lustrous finish unless it was ferrotyped. Then in the 1970s the resin coated papers largely eliminated the need for ferrotyping, and heat drying. So the real question is what fraction of all photographers continue to insist upon a Fiber-based photographic paper and a superglossy finish with that paper (vs. resin coated glossy)

mfohl · Nov 22, 2016

Exactly. That's my question. I'm thinking the fraction is very low, approaching zero. But does *anybody* still ferrotype?

RPC · Nov 22, 2016

I tried it a few times back before the days of RC papers. I was 11 or 12 then, using a ferrotype plate and always got uneven, flat results, nothing like commercial results. Then when glossy RC paper came out I never looked back. I wouldn't try it today, as I like the look of glossy fiber paper and if I want a high gloss, I will always use RC.

Doc W · Nov 22, 2016

I would love to ferrotype so I will watch this thread in the hope that someone will explain exactly how it is done. I print only on glossy FB paper but for some prints I would like it even more glossy.

paul ron · Nov 22, 2016

wasnt there a special solution you had to treat your prints in before doing it?

wiltw · Nov 22, 2016

The way it is done...
a) a clean ferrotyping tin, b) use a roller to press the emulsion side of the wet paper to the chromed surface of the tin, c) let dry.

It was NOT necessary to use a chromed surface, although that was quite popular...even a porcelainized surface could be used. A liquid polish was available for polishing the surfaced of the ferrotype tin, but not for rolling the print onto the ferrotype surface.

Doc W · Nov 22, 2016

wiltw said:
The way it is done...
a) a clean ferrotyping tin, b) use a roller to press the emulsion side of the wet paper to the chromed surface of the tin, c) let dry.

It was NOT necessary to use a chromed surface, although that was quite popular...even a porcelainized surface could be used. A liquid polish was available for polishing the surfaced of the ferrotype tin, but not for rolling the print onto the ferrotype surface.

I don't understand your last sentence. Is this polish necessary? Could one roll the print onto a piece of glass or must it be metal? Is there heat involved?

MattKing · Nov 22, 2016

The surface used (usually metal, but glass could be used) needed to be really clean and really smooth. Even if the plates or glass sheets used were really smooth when they were new, as they aged they would become "un-smooth", so the polish was used to restore their surface. If the polish was used from the beginning, the smoothness was reliable.

If you want to experiment, take a print on glossy fibre based paper, wet it thoroughly, and then squeegee it face down onto a piece of smooth and clean glass. Let it dry and then peal it off. At least some of the print surface will show that ferrotype gloss. The non-shiny parts will show you what the flaws of a non-perfect ferrotyping job look like .

EDIT: and yes, the process could be speeded up if you added heat, so the special purpose ferrotyping dryers were heated.

wiltw · Nov 22, 2016

Doc W said:
I don't understand your last sentence. Is this polish necessary? Could one roll the print onto a piece of glass or must it be metal? Is there heat involved?

It was NOT necessary to use a chromed surface, although that was quite popular
...even a porcelainized surface could be used
...or a glass one.

Heat is NOT necessarily involved, it could merely airdry.
Polish is not necessary, but it helps to 'release' the emulsion from the surface.

Kawaiithulhu · Nov 22, 2016

Polish was required as occasional maintenance on the surface, usually chrome, and rather than wait for failures between maintenance intervals it was preferred to be consistent and always polish before a run. All polishing really does is ensure that the surface is regularly smooth and free of contaminants that a casual cleaning wouldn't get.

Chrome was preferred because it's very, very easy to see imperfections and dust on that kind of front-mirrored surface. Also, the act of applying the chrome levels out imperfections in the substrate. Other surface types can certainly be used!

Heat is decidedly not necessary, but ferrotyping was often combined with drying and the heat helped speed that process.

I'm unsure about the real use of ferrotyping fluid, but I suspect it was used to ensure good and even contact while squeezing the paper onto the surface as a wetting agent for the gelatin on the print.

PS: 1970-80's RC paper was horrible, yecch! But it did indeed remove the need for ferrotyping to get very glossy results

EdSawyer · Nov 22, 2016

there was a special fluid involved too, "Pakosol" was one brand, made by Pakor.

hacked - sepiareverb · Nov 22, 2016

Glass is not always a good choice. I have several pieces of glass in my studio with prints permanently affixed. Same glass, same paper, same chemistry, same cleaning procedure yielded fairly good results one day but not the next. I came upon a new in box Premeir Print Dryer with the heated chrome surfaces, but have been too chicken to try it.

I ran a big drum ferrotyping dryer in a studio where I was the printer for a few years in the mid 80s. We did all our proofsheets on AZO and dried them glossy. I never remember cleaning the drum once.

AgX · Nov 22, 2016

see here too:

what "Ferrotyping" means

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Eric Rose · Nov 22, 2016

Wow your bringing back bad memories!

faberryman · Nov 22, 2016

I used one in college in the early 1970's primarily to quickly dry the prints to get them to the newspaper guys for the next morning's edition. No fond memories of the results for me.

paul ron · Nov 22, 2016

EdSawyer said:
there was a special fluid involved too, "Pakosol" was one brand, made by Pakor.

thats the stuff. without it, regardless of how clean your plate, results will be very unpredictable.

ferrotype prints were very popular in the 70s.

Jim Jones · Nov 22, 2016

In the late 1970s the journalism school at the University of Iowa had a busy photo lab with maybe a dozen enlargers and a big Pako drum dryer. Students did their own processing up to the wash. To avoid contaminating the dryer belt and to insure good ferrotyping, they weren't trusted with the washing and drying. Under those conditions, ferrotyping was reliable and certainly more attractive than early RC paper.

EdSawyer · Nov 23, 2016

I still have a New-old-stock gallon jug of that. I am not sure what it is, really, or if it's still available. I don't have a ferrotyping dryer to try it with but might get one someday (I think they are still made, the oval-style ones with the canvas wraps?)

paul ron said:
thats the stuff. without it, regardless of how clean your plate, results will be very unpredictable.

ferrotype prints were very popular in the 70s.

AgX · Nov 23, 2016

There are at least one manufacturer in Italy and one in Germany.

darkroommike · Nov 23, 2016

There was no magic in Pakosol it was essentially a glycerin-type solution (MSDS lists it as 97% by weight hexylene glycol). Used with a heated drum dryer (wish I had room for a big Pako!) it helped the print adhere and then cleanly release during it's trip around the drum. It's anti-bacterial and a humectant, I suspect that kept the growth of mold and bacteria down in that open tray and it slowed the drying down a bit so that the print did not "pop" which caused "cockle" marks. At one time Edwal and others made similar glossing brews. Edwal Super Flat was propylene glycol and isopropyl alcohol.
Ferrotype tins were usually cleaned with Bon Ami to get them really clean, more than one publication insisted you use only Bon Ami "cake" and not the powder (I suspect this was more to keep the end user from using something like Barkeepers Friend or God forbid Comet abrasive cleansers when you couldn't locally source Bon Ami Cake--which I believe is finely sieved Fuller's Earth but don't hold me to that suspicion.)
Ferrotype tins could be either enamel or chrome plated, the side of a refrigerator worked well, too. Never use a tin that's pitted. Tins were usually racked vertically if air dried and you never put a fan on the tins, if the prints dry too fast you get cockle marks on the print surface.
Tins were polished/waxed, Pako made a ferrotype polish and so did Edwal. I suspect paste wax would have worked if you polished it off real well.
The prints need to be hardened or else the gelatin could stick too well to the tin or glass. Gelatin was once used to make frosted glass, you put the gelatin on let it dry and then pull the sheet off, the gelatin would pull off little bits of the glass surface. Gelatin sticks real well to glass and metal if you don't wax your tins or use Pakosol.
Don't ever try to pull the print off a tin, doing so will damage the print. It will fall off when dry, if all else fails you can wet the back of the print with a sponge and take it off, this will not save the print but will save the tin.
I recall DIY formulas for both polish and glazing solutions, Photographic Facts and Formulas by Wall and Jordan. 1940 suggests paraffin and benzine for a polish. That's Edward Wall aka Edwal? There's also Kodak P-1 which is carbon tetrachloride and paraffin. Google can provide others I'm sure.

Mainecoonmaniac · Nov 23, 2016

I haven't ferrotyped my prints in over 30 years. I remembered over 30 years ago in my first photo class in college that had a ferrotyping drum dryer. It gave a gloss to my prints that was unmatched. I do see some ferrotyping dryers on Ebay. The last one I saw was in a thrift store. The apron was dirty and torn. I would have bought it otherwise. I did buy some vernacular photos from a store in Seattle that were ferrotyped. They're beautiful.

EdSawyer · Nov 23, 2016

I am inspired to try this someday soon, just to see if it's still a viable process and worth the effort. Thanks for posting the details darkroommike!

Sirius Glass · Nov 23, 2016

When I was in high school I ferrotyped. When I set up a darkroom ten years ago, I purchased a large drum print dryer from the same person I bought the 4"x5" enlarger from.

bence8810 · Nov 23, 2016

As I have a large stock of glossy fibre paper I decided to try Ferrytyping and bought a cheap cloth dryer (the one above explained) and gave it a try. The results look truly amazing but always with flaws. I can never get it to dry smooth, no matter how much I clean the plate.

You can see two images below (both the same actually) - the first one shows the whole area with the flaw and the second a zoomed in version.

I was trying for a long time to buy the right Wax etc but then just got tired and gave up. Still use the paper just without enjoying that amazing gloss.

Ben

Ferrotyping?

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