Ferrotyping FB, is it still doable/desirable?

brian steinberger · Jun 18, 2020

So I’ve done the air dried glossy fiber print thing for years. I love the look. But my time is much more limited now and I’ve been taking a lot of 35mm pictures of my 3 year old and loving it. I recently had an evening to go into the darkroom and make a few prints on the new Ilford MGRC glossy paper and it is beautiful. A huge improvement over RC MGIV IMO. Anyway, I never really printed on glossy RC before (just contact sheets) I always used pearl but for the shots of my daughter they looked great on glossy.

So that got me thinking of how to achieve that look on FB. In my day job Im a framer and I see many older small single weight FB prints that were ferrotyped and they are beautiful! So that brings in the questions.

Can modern DW fiber papers be successfully ferrotyped? I’m going to assume that answer is yes. I wish I could still get my hands on some SW paper but there is none RIP.

Do I need a hardener in the fixer? I use Hypam. I can add a hardener to Hypam but never have and Ilford no longer makes one.

Can any old one of those heated canvas film drying drums be used as long as the plate is clean? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Premier-Professional-Photo-Print-Dryer-Model-TC-110/324185557312?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd700614aa57c49de97ff89487cb677a3%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D324185557312%26itm%3D324185557312%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DPremier&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Adfc00982-b191-11ea-8178-facfa7a83ed8%7Cparentrq%3Ac8b2e60c1720a0f2bc14b23ffff93665%7Ciid%3A1

this is one I found on eBay. Would I need a separate plate for the ferrotyping or just do it right on the dryer?

Or lastly, Should I just forget that I ever asked these questions and continue using RC paper? From some of the research I’ve done here I’m sure some of you will suggest this. Haha!

I guess I’m looking for the longevity, feel and charm of FB paper with the gloss and of ferrotyping.

Thanks guys!! Sorry for such a long post.

voceumana · Jun 18, 2020

Back when I was in high school (late 1960's) I tried ferrotyping but gave up. It was always a pain, and hard to get evenly dried prints without "oyster shell" drying ridges. I used a heated dryer (flip over type) and inserted the frerrotype plate in the dryer. My dryer did not have a ferrotype surface--it was just enameled steel. The canvas on the dryer held everything flat. RC glossy is much easier to do. The dryer you showed had the ferrotype surface, so you don't need separate plates. If the surface is perfect, you can use it directly.

But you can still do it if you want to do the work. The plates must be immaculate and the print has to be in firm contact with the plate until it is completely dry. Drying temperature should be not too high to avoid releasing in stages which causes the oyster shell ridges.

Since that dryer isn't too expensive, give it a try. You'll also need a print roller (brayer, in artist shop terms) to squeegee the print to the plate. You'll want to make sure the canvas is perfectly free of hypo if it has been used. Remove and wash the canvas in the laundry, making sure to use cold water so as not to shrink the canvas. Put it back on while it is damp.

The dry can also be used for "glossy dried matte" by facing the image to the canvas, so it isn't wasted if you don't like the ferrotype results you get.

brian steinberger · Jun 18, 2020

Thanks for that great info! I have asked the seller what size the dryer is and also if the chrome is in perfect condition. It appears to be from the picture. Ferrotyping sounds intriguing to me. It’s one thing in silver gelatin photography I’ve never tried and maybe that’s why it’s so intriguing. I’d be doing small prints. Mostly 5x7 so maybe my success rate would go up.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 18, 2020

I never had much luck ferrotyping with heat. You almost always get that oyster effect of lines as the print releases. Using chromed plates works well, without the heat. The best thing I've ever used though is clear plexiglass or Lexan or whatever it is called. You can get it at Home Depot. First you can see through it to make sure everything is in contact and there isn't any dust. Second, it is cheap. Maybe that should be first. Lol. Third, the static from the plexi keeps the print in place as it dries. Works perfectly nearly every time. I use a roller on a wet print to smoosh it down (and I do mean smoosh!) then put a cloth over it to slow down the drying. Wipe up any water with a paper towel before you cover it. You should put a tiny amount of wax on the plexi. Get a guitar pick or something too because the static will make it difficult to get the corner of the print free from the surface of the plexi. Also, the print won't "pop" off the plexi like it does with ferrotype plates. You need to peel it off, but really you are only peeling it off from the static cling. With ferrotype plates it is obvious when the print is ready since it won't be attached to the plate anymore. With plexi it won't be obvious so you have to make sure it is dry.

I stumbled over the plexi thing by coincidence. I had some clear plexi and was frustrated with the ferrotype plates, so I tried it. Bingo.

And i do it with regular prints. I.e. i dont harden them. Never tried that. Maybe it would help. Don't know.

I probably forgot some detail or something since it has been a few years since I've done it. Feel free to ask if you have a question.

Hope that helps you Brian.

voceumana · Jun 18, 2020

Definitely used a hardening fixer for ferrotyping.

brian steinberger · Jun 18, 2020

Thanks Patrick. I actually have access to plexiglass at work. We use the 1/8” picture framing grade with the paper that peels off. Would that suffice?

Patrick Robert James · Jun 18, 2020

brian steinberger said:
Thanks Patrick. I actually have access to plexiglass at work. We use the 1/8” picture framing grade with the paper that peels off. Would that suffice?

I don't see why it wouldn't work as long as it is smooth and not anti-glare or anything. Give it a whirl. You only need a piece a little larger than the print. The hardware store stuff will be thicker though.

By the way, I think I might have put my prints in hot water first. Can't remember. Like I said it has been a few years.... And by roller above I meant a brayer, hard plastic not rubber.

Good luck!

GRHazelton · Jun 18, 2020

Back in the day, somewhere around 1959 or 1960, I shot for my high school paper, year book, and sometimes for a local weekly paper. My Father and I had a darkroom of sorts and of course we used FB paper. As I recall the various publishers required glossy prints for their plate making process. We used chrome tins, air dried, and I seem to remember carefully washing the tins and applying a wax of some sort which we then polished, then the wet prints were applied to the tins using a rubber brayer. The prints were made in the usual fashion, and those that I have from those days haven't faded or discolored.

Christiaan Phleger · Jun 18, 2020

I used to do it on a thicker sheet of glass. Post sulfide toning HCA and washing the emulsion was quite soft. Ilford WT WB and I would let it dry until it popped off on its own, if not then re-soak the whole glass until it came off. If the prints were handled well it worked fine.

koraks · Jun 19, 2020

I tried it several times on glass, plexi, mirrors, ferrotyping plate in canvas drier - heat, no heat - no release agent, hefty dose of wetting agent, hardening release agent based on agfa formula - tried several papers...not much luck. Once or twice I got an OK result on 5x7", but 99% of my attempts were a failure. So I can't offer much usable advice I'm afraid...

Christiaan Phleger · Jun 19, 2020

yeah I attribute more of my success to the fact that I lived in a location where a hot but not too dry heat was consistently possible; glass worked better that Plexiglas and I would wax the glass after.

Oh and nothing looks better IMO than a warm toned print glossy fiber that has been ferrotyped. almost worth the cost of the mistakes but yes it was not uncommon to lose a few prints. Like I said I could resoak the print on the glass and 'back up a step' and sometimes it would save it. But yes I did have to remake a more prints to get a good 'type

grain elevator · Jun 19, 2020

What sort of wax did you guys use and how did you apply it?

GRHazelton · Jun 19, 2020

grain elevator said:
What sort of wax did you guys use and how did you apply it?

That I can't remember. IIRC we applied it with a cloth wad, and then polished it with cloth. In any ferrotyping everything must be really clean, a tiny bit of grit or whatever will really show up. For personal use we just air dried glossy paper, a look I really like. Again, IRRC we used Luminos paper, which was cheaper than Kodak at that time.

grain elevator · Jun 19, 2020

I suppose pure beeswax should be archival and a bit of it can be dissolved in alcohols... but it is very sticky, I can't imagine it letting go of a print very easily. Or does it not stick to the gelatine? I suppose that's its purpose, and I can see that it wouldn't while the gelatine is wet, because wax is hydrophobic. Guess I answered my own question.

brian steinberger · Jun 19, 2020

So last night I took an old non keeper print of which I have many and re-soaked it. I stuck it to a piece of 1/8” plexi glass and rolled with with a brayer. The result was actually pretty good. I could see through the plexi that I had a few areas were not making full contact. All I had was my wife’s rubber brayer from her block printing kit. It is rather soft. I think if I got a hard plastic brayer the result would be better. I also had some cracking too. Is this where a hardener in the fixer would help?

I waxed the plexi with renaissance wax first and that worked great. I went downstairs this morning and the print had almost popped itself off. The paper is Ilford classic.

Paul Howell · Jun 19, 2020

When in the Air Force we ferrotyped prints, we had a large drum dryer, used Kodak print flatting solution, every day policed the drier, changed the canvas belt on a regular bases and made sure the drum moved slow enough for the prints to dry, when we had issues had to rewash the prints and start the process over. When we received a batch of the the early RC papers, made the job a lot easier. The old system that sent a picture by wire had to be ferrotype and the old off set printing process worked best with a high gloss print. I don't remember what we used to polish the drum, don't think it was bee's wax.

EdSawyer · Jun 19, 2020

there is also a special fluid that was used, Pakor used to make it, I have some somewhere but have not tried it. (pakosol I think it was called? )

GRHazelton · Jun 19, 2020

We may have used a print flattening solution. IIRC it contained some ethylene glycol, so don't drink! Ethylene glycol, widely used in automotive antifreeze mixes, is hydroscopic, so the print doesn't completely dry out and is thus less likely to curl. Propylene glycol is GRAS - generally recognized as safe - and could also be used. P glycol is used to treat wood turned food serving bowls to prevent spitting.

KenS · Jun 19, 2020

When I was a 'working' photographer in a Govt. Research facility, all B/W prints going 'out the door' were to be submitted for publication in a variety of "publications.
That being said, now that I am 'well and truly retired' I no longer use Commercial B/W papers but.... I have a 'package of 16x20 'never used' chrome plated copper ferrotyping plates. I now make my prints using (only) the 'archaic' print process
If you like to see them 'live' via iPhone (or whatever 'brand) (I use the Messenger App) you can have a look at them
'Live' via my 'iPhone #403-394-6456 and make me a $$ offer if you are any-what 'interested

Ken

Paul Howell · Jun 19, 2020

Looking over my notes, last time I did glossy FB was maybe 10 years ago, I have a 2 sided print dyer, ferro plate. What I did was with dyer turned off, clean the plate with Bartenders Friend, then polished with a wool rag, Lacking print flattening solution, after final wash soaked the prints in distilled water, placed on the plate print side facing the plate, lightly sweggy the print to the plate, pull the canvas cover on and latch it, then turn on the dyer, do not turn it off until it is well dried, at that point the print should pop off. plate. If not perfect, rewash the print and start over. The reason I haven't done FB glossy is such a long time, not worth the effort, just use RC for glossy. I know that some use unheated plates, same process, let air dry until the print popps off.

chriscrawfordphoto · Jun 19, 2020

EdSawyer said:
there is also a special fluid that was used, Pakor used to make it, I have some somewhere but have not tried it. (pakosol I think it was called? )

Pakosol! That brings back memories. When I was in high school, our photo teacher had an Arkay ferrotype machine. You put the prints face up on a canvas conveyor belt that pulled them in and into contact with a rotating drum. They popped out the top into a tray, fully dried. I'd totally forgotten about having to soak them in Pakosol till I saw your post! I graduated from high school 26 years ago!

Some idiot scratched "F--k You" in the drum, so we had to be careful not to put prints in when that part of the drum was coming around or the prints would have that phrase on them, reversed, of course!

AgX · Jun 19, 2020

With sheet ferrotyping devices you might exchange the glossy plate or rather foil off stock (some machines were designed that way).
With rotary machines you are left with a whole drum, that at best may be polished and rechromed by a galvanizing specialist.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 19, 2020

Palkusol was probably some form of glycerin, at least Kodak print flattening solution was. I've tried that before and since glycerin is hygroscopic it leaves the prints feeling a touch wet even when they are dry.

Now that I am thinking about this I just did some digging. Pakusol was apparently a glycol, as was Edwals' print flattening solution. IIRC Kodak's was glycerin. I have some Propylene Glycol around here somewhere. Might give that a go. Wasn't too impressed with the glycerin when I tried it.

Just a note as well. This thread made me dig out the couple hundred prints I ferrotyped for one of my projects. The one thing that struck me is that all of the prints are dead flat! No curl at all and they were just loose in a box. I might start plexitypingtm my prints again.

By the way, the wax I used was Butcher's Boston Polish which is a microcrystalline and carnauba wax in probably turpentine. I thin it with turpentine though. You only need a teeny tiny bit.

koraks · Jun 19, 2020

This is all valuable information. I'm going to give this another go one of these days to see if I can get it to work for me. The one or two quasi-succesful ferrotyped prints I managed were enough for me to see that it can work well for some images. I also liked it more than glossy RC.

AgX · Jun 19, 2020

Are ferrotyping presses still made?
The major german manufacturer Büscher vanished within the last years.
Similar for a custom manufacture in Italy.

Ferrotyping FB, is it still doable/desirable?

brian steinberger

voceumana

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