Ferrotype Glazing issue.

Supercine · Jun 5, 2024

Hi does, or has anyone tried to ferrotype/glaze fibre paper with any success?
I’ve tried a few times now and seem to have similar issues. There is a ‘pitting’ on the glaze. I have polished the plate with a beeswax & turpentine polish and soaked the print in a photo flow solution and then squeegeed the print flat and let it dry naturally. I don’t get any ‘oystering’ just pitting. I think it’s air trapped between the print and the plate.
Any ideas on how to remedy?

Rick A · Jun 5, 2024

No one has made ferrotype polish in decades. Several years ago I tried "Renaissance Wax" with limited success, I have gotten rid of all my dryers since.

Sirius Glass · Jun 5, 2024

If one gets ferrotype to consistently work well, it is great, but until then no so. I have not used it since the late 1060's.

koraks · Jun 5, 2024

Supercine said:
There is a ‘pitting’ on the glaze.

This is usually due to tiny air bubbles or some kind of dirt/fouling on the glass or plexiglass. Cleanliness is next to godliness, and all that.

Sirius Glass said:
I have not used it since the late 1060's.

Ah yes. But then of course the Normans invaded...

Rick A · Jun 5, 2024

Sirius Glass said:
If one gets ferrotype to consistently work well, it is great, but until then no so. I have not used it since the late 1060's.

Dang, you're old.

ic-racer · Jun 5, 2024

Actually that is not a bad result. You might want to experiment with a different paper.

Also, check this thread:

https://rangefinderforum.com/threads/pakosol-alternatives-for-ferrotyping-fiber-prints-make-at-home.4786807/

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

No Photoflo, look for Kodak print flattening solution or Pakosol. Avoid heating. Glazing is an art.

koraks · Jun 5, 2024

mshchem said:
look for Kodak print flattening solution or Pakosol

I expect neither of them are manufactured anymore. Old stock may or may not still work satisfactorily; AFAIK both contained formaline and this will precipitate out in strands after many years and there's a chance this may affect the functioning of the product.

I was sent a formula of a similar product (I think an Agfa formula) once upon a time, and I did some testing with it. It contained formalin, photoflo and glycol as I recall. It didn't help much at all. What did help was use plexiglass instead of regular glass. Gelatin sticks really well to real glass; it's a 'trick' that has been used by carbon printers for well over a century. With ferrotyping, it evidently gets in the way! Plexiglass (and polyprolylene, polyethylene etc.) generally bond much less effectively or even not at all with gelatin, making them easier to work with in this application.

I agree with @ic-racer that the result shown here is actually pretty good.

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

koraks said:
I expect neither of them are manufactured anymore. Old stock may or may not still work satisfactorily; AFAIK both contained formaline and this will precipitate out in strands after many years and there's a chance this may affect the functioning of the product.

I was sent a formula of a similar product (I think an Agfa formula) once upon a time, and I did some testing with it. It contained formalin, photoflo and glycol as I recall. It didn't help much at all. What did help was use plexiglass instead of regular glass. Gelatin sticks really well to real glass; it's a 'trick' that has been used by carbon printers for well over a century. With ferrotyping, it evidently gets in the way! Plexiglass (and polyprolylene, polyethylene etc.) generally bond much less effectively or even not at all with gelatin, making them easier to work with in this application.

I agree with @ic-racer that the result shown here is actually pretty good.

I have used Pakosol, it works, sorta. One thing I learned is hardener, especially if toning, either in the fixer or, after toning is important. I have a couple old bottles of ferrotype polish. Horrible stuff, benzene, etc. I don't know that I've ever seen a ferrotyped fiber print that compares to RC papers coming off my Ilfospeed dryer.

Sirius Glass · Jun 5, 2024

koraks said:
This is usually due to tiny air bubbles or some kind of dirt/fouling on the glass or plexiglass. Cleanliness is next to godliness, and all that.

Ah yes. But then of course the Normans invaded...

Yes I was there six years before the invasion.

Would you be more of a believer is the read

"If one gets ferrotype to consistently work well, it is great, but until then no so. I have not used it since the late 1960's."

Anon Ymous · Jun 5, 2024

koraks said:
Ah yes. But then of course the Normans invaded...

Hahaha, lol

Mal Paso · Jun 5, 2024

Pakosol, but most of us transitioned to RC Paper long ago for gloss.

Fiber I like glossy dried mat.

MarkS · Jun 5, 2024

Note that Kodak Print Flattening Solution (it was an EK product until at least the 1980s) is very bad for print permanence. The RFF thread that ic-racer mentions above has good info.

I worked in a custom lab in the late '70s, when "single-weight glossy" was the standard printing paper. They used a Pakosol bath for the prints and passed them through a giant Pako rotary dryer to get the gloss. Tedious, but it wasn't my job...
A few years later, I worked in a different lab; that place used RC paper and a roller-transport processor. Much, much easier, and the customers were fine with it (if they noticed at all), so it was a win for everybody.

Mal Paso · Jun 5, 2024

I had a 16x20 Rex and used several drum ferrotyping machines and Don't Miss Them!

Paul Howell · Jun 5, 2024

I last use my Ferrotype dryer 8 or 9 years ago, I used a chrome polish I found at the auto parts store, still being made for classics cars, distilled water for the soak. I had did have few bottles of Kodak print drying solution, but did not help at all, must have gone off with age. My dryer is flat, it has the canvas backing that fits over the plate to keep the print flat against the plate. I soaked my prints in distilled water, only because our water here in the Phoenix metro is very hard and I wanted to make sure I did not have any watermarks, used a squeegee to get rid of air bubbles and leaving the dryer off let the prints dry until the popped off. I did not use the canvas backing Today I use RC for glossy and screen dry prints for matt or semi matte with glossy FB paper.

BobUK · Jun 5, 2024

I realise that Tetenal have recently gone to the wall, but there will still be plenty of the stock on the shelves.

The wetting agent Tetenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic can also be used as a Glazing Fliud.

The instructions are 1:400 as wetting agent.

1:40 Glazing Solution.

I have not used it for glazing myself though it might be worth a try.

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

I have used Pako drum dryers for decades. I can count on one hand the times I have tried ferrotype(ing). I dry print emulsion side towards the canvas belt.

Never used print flattening solution. I think this was primarily for single weight "8x10 Glossies"

Paul Howell · Jun 5, 2024

mshchem said:
I have used Pako drum dryers for decades. I can count on one hand the times I have tried ferrotype(ing). I dry print emulsion side towards the canvas belt.

Never used print flattening solution. I think this was primarily for single weight "8x10 Glossies"

While in the Air Force we had a couple of Pako, 90% of prints were glossy, maybe 10% semi matt, most semi matt were for the officer's personnel file, needed a current 5X7 semi matt as I recall the technical orders. Not sure when that practice was discontinued. At the time we used Kodak print flattening solution. Although Kodak wetting agent does not have the antibacterial or antifungal agents wonder if it could be as a print flatting agent?

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

Paul Howell said:
While in the Air Force we had a couple of Pako, 90% of prints were glossy, maybe 10% semi matt, most semi matt were for the officer's personnel file, needed a current 5X7 semi matt as I recall the technical orders. Not sure when that practice was discontinued. At the time we used Kodak print flattening solution. Although Kodak wetting agent does not have the antibacterial or antifungal agents wonder if it could be as a print flatting agent?

Kodak promoted Photoflo for prints in old PopPhotography adverts way back. I wouldn't mess with it. The old print flattening solutions and Pakosol used glycol. Absorbed into the paper base the glycol was hygroscopic, kept the paper and gelatin emulsion from fighting each other (like a bi- metal strip) .

I think 95% of the gloss is cleaning and polishing the ferrotype tin. Plexiglass sounds like a great idea! Not for me as long as I can get lovely Ilford MG RC paper

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

Supercine · Jun 6, 2024

koraks said:
This is usually due to tiny air bubbles or some kind of dirt/fouling on the glass or plexiglass. Cleanliness is next to godliness, and all that.

Ah yes. But then of course the Normans invaded...

Yes, I assumed it was small air bubbles. I think I’ll submerge the plate as well as the print in the tray next time to see if that helps.

Supercine · Jun 6, 2024

ic-racer said:
Actually that is not a bad result. You might want to experiment with a different paper.

Also, check this thread:

https://rangefinderforum.com/threads/pakosol-alternatives-for-ferrotyping-fiber-prints-make-at-home.4786807/

Thanks for that. I’ll have a read. I did wonder if paper would play a part. I’ll try some Ilford next. This is some Sterling Signature.

Supercine · Jun 6, 2024

koraks said:
I expect neither of them are manufactured anymore. Old stock may or may not still work satisfactorily; AFAIK both contained formaline and this will precipitate out in strands after many years and there's a chance this may affect the functioning of the product.

I was sent a formula of a similar product (I think an Agfa formula) once upon a time, and I did some testing with it. It contained formalin, photoflo and glycol as I recall. It didn't help much at all. What did help was use plexiglass instead of regular glass. Gelatin sticks really well to real glass; it's a 'trick' that has been used by carbon printers for well over a century. With ferrotyping, it evidently gets in the way! Plexiglass (and polyprolylene, polyethylene etc.) generally bond much less effectively or even not at all with gelatin, making them easier to work with in this application.

I agree with @ic-racer that the result shown here is actually pretty good.

Hi Koraks, thanks for saying it looks ok! I’m not that happy with it. I’m using a stainless steel plate made by Photax. I first cleaned it with silver polish and then gave it 2coats of polish made with beeswax and turpentine. The prints lift of great when left to dry naturally without heat. It’s the pitting I need to address. I as I mentioned in an earlier reply. I have a plan!

Supercine · Jun 6, 2024

BobUK said:
I realise that Tetenal have recently gone to the wall, but there will still be plenty of the stock on the shelves.

The wetting agent Tetenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic can also be used as a Glazing Fliud.

The instructions are 1:400 as wetting agent.

1:40 Glazing Solution.

I have not used it for glazing myself though it might be worth a try.

Thank you!

koraks · Jun 6, 2024

Supercine said:
I think I’ll submerge the plate as well as the print in the tray next time to see if that helps.

Yeah, that might help. I do a lot of 'mating' sheets together in carbon printing, which needs to be bubble-free as well. Submerging both halves does indeed work quite well as long as you have a tray that will hold everything. Give it a try.

The beeswax polish probably helps a lot with the prints lifting off of the plate. I've tried chrome plated steel a couple of times, but only managed to transfer the chrome plating to the prints (the latter of course did not survive)...

Ferrotype Glazing issue.

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