Ferric Oxalate Nightmares.

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jimgalli

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I just want to throw my experiences out there to see if they are extremely abnormal or about the same as what other folks are seeing regarding mixing this troublesome goo.

Here's my "normal" procedure. I use a 1 cup Pyrex graduate to mix in. This gives plenty of room for elaborate stirring without spilling. I'm trying to make a 27% solution so it's 15 grams ferric oxalate powder, 1 gram Oxalic acid, 55ml distilled H2O. I make a "water bath" in a 1 quart Pyrex and put the 1 cup pyrex in the water bath. I heat the water bath with one of those coil things that has an electric element inside for re-heating coffee. When my distilled water gets steamy (around 200+ or - degrees F I add the Feric Oxalate. I stir a bit, then I add the Oxalic acid. Then I stir for about 1 1/2 hours. It's a PITA.

What I end up with is something like a 20% disolved solution which is useable. I have sludge that never ever does go into solution. I let it settle at the bottom of the bottle and try not to worry about it.

When I print, I have to use far more FO than the "recipes" call for. For instance an 8X10 would be 20 drops FO to 13 drops Pd Pt etc.

What am I doing wrong? What are you all experiencing? This stuff seems to be a nightmare to me.

BTW the powder I'm using was purchased from Artcraft Chemicals about 6 years ago, has been stored properly, and has always reacted just as it does now. I have no reason to believe it was a bad product.
 

Ray Bidegain

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You are having a hard time!

It sounds like you have the amounts correct, and the oxalic acid is supposed to make the mixing easier. I do not use the acid as a rule. I mix mine by putting the hot water in a graduated cylinder I have that has a stopper, I add the FO put on the lid and shake it for 30 seconds, let it rest 5 min. and shake it again. If it is still not ready to go I put the whole thing in a beaker filled with hot tap water and let it sit for 5 more min. then it is done. I never have sludge.

My best guess is that you need some new FO, I get mine from Bostick & Sullivan.


Ray Bidegain
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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Thanks Ray. That is what I wanted to hear. Guess I'll go shopping.
 

glbeas

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Does the mineral content of the water affect the dissolving rate? Seems to me there are quite a few ions that will make an insoluable sludge with the ferric ion.
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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glbeas said:
Does the mineral content of the water affect the dissolving rate? Seems to me there are quite a few ions that will make an insoluable sludge with the ferric ion.
I boiled all the minerals out of it. Distilled. jg
 

glbeas

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jimgalli said:
I boiled all the minerals out of it. Distilled. jg

I take it then the recommendation is to use distilled water always when making up this solution. Hopefully you didn't get a jug of spring water by mistake for your darkroom, I've almost made that mistake myself.
 

photo8x10

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I've just finished to read your reply about to make a solution 1, I would like to try to make it, and I have this questions.: :confused:
1) What temperature should be distilled water? (the best to dissolve powder chemical, I read more and less 120/150 degrees F)
I saw in internet some receipe about solution 1 with also EDTA
2)Do you raccomand it? and Is it helps shelf life?
3)How long will it take me to stir the solution?(the right time to finish the solution)

Maybe are stupid questions but I'm new in this kind of printing, and so far I used to use Bostick and Sullivan solutions(ready to use) but like my silver print (AZO) I want to make, if possible, solutions by myself. :smile:

Thanks

Stefano Germi
Italy
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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photo8x10 said:
I've just finished to read your reply about to make a solution 1, I would like to try to make it, and I have this questions.: :confused:
1) What temperature should be distilled water? (the best to dissolve powder chemical, I read more and less 120/150 degrees F)
I saw in internet some receipe about solution 1 with also EDTA
2)Do you raccomand it? and Is it helps shelf life?
3)How long will it take me to stir the solution?(the right time to finish the solution)

Maybe are stupid questions but I'm new in this kind of printing, and so far I used to use Bostick and Sullivan solutions(ready to use) but like my silver print (AZO) I want to make, if possible, solutions by myself. :smile:

Thanks

Stefano Germi
Italy

Stefano, my experience is limited of course. But even though the literature says 140 degrees I have found out it really doesn't mix well until about 200 degrees. Other thing I have found is that the EDTA did not help. In fact the one batch I mixed with EDTA to try to help it was no good at all. I had to pour it out. Like I say though my experience is limited and other folks are having far less problems. Hopeful that your Bostick chems are nicer to you.
 

magic823

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Heat and time.

BTW, I make my own Ferric Oxalate. Anybody want me to post the "recipe" for making your own?

Steve
 

Photo Engineer

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I've been thinking this over for a few days. Here are the only things that occur to me.

1. Bad Ferric oxalate. It is easy to mess this up IIRC.

2. Bad oxalic acid. If there is sodium oxalate in this it would be bad. If it is not oxalic acid, it would be bad.

3. There are not enough 'hard' ions in even tap water to give you that much sludge so the water does not appear to be the problem whatever the source.

Heating oxalate salts too much in the dry state can lead to decomposition sometimes. I cannot find Ferric Oxalate in my handbook, so I cannot pass along any information other than recollection.

PE
 

glbeas

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magic823 said:
Heat and time.

BTW, I make my own Ferric Oxalate. Anybody want me to post the "recipe" for making your own?

Steve

That would be quite interesting to see. Perhaps an article in the chemistry recipes?
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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Thanks for this. I have to believe I must not have gotten the best of all FO in the first place. I'll try some more soon. Glad to hear that things may get easier. Steve I've heard that mixing your own eats up enough time and energy to probably make purchasing the powder a bargain. True?
Photo Engineer said:
I've been thinking this over for a few days. Here are the only things that occur to me.

1. Bad Ferric oxalate. It is easy to mess this up IIRC.

2. Bad oxalic acid. If there is sodium oxalate in this it would be bad. If it is not oxalic acid, it would be bad.

3. There are not enough 'hard' ions in even tap water to give you that much sludge so the water does not appear to be the problem whatever the source.

Heating oxalate salts too much in the dry state can lead to decomposition sometimes. I cannot find Ferric Oxalate in my handbook, so I cannot pass along any information other than recollection.

PE
 

magic823

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I find mixing chemicals fun, so the time is of no problem. Here's the recipe I have.

You need the following substances to make ferric oxalate:

ferrous ammonium sulfate crystals 1 pound
oxalic acid crystals 1 pound
hydrogen peroxide 30% solution 1 pint
potassium ferricyanide crystals 1 pound
distilled water 1 gallon


You also need the following equipment:
Scale (0.1g to 100g is fine)
Graduate 150 ml.
2 Glass Beakers 500 ml.
Brown glass bottle 500 ml.
Glass or plastic funnel (about 1 pint)
Filter paper
Acid test paper or pH meter
Brown glass or plastic bottles 4 ounces or 100 ml.

Use the following procedure for making ferric oxalate:

1. Begin by combining 125.1 g of ferrous ammonium sulfate (do not use ferric) with 300 ml of distilled water in a 500 ml glass beaker. Heat the water to facilitate dissolving the chemical. About 150°F will do. Stir until all the chemical is dissolved.

2. When the ferrous ammonium sulfate is completely dissolved, add 40.2 g of oxalic acid crystals to the hot solution. Stir continuously until a yellow precipitate, ferrous oxalate, forms. This will take about 3 minutes.

3. When the solution is uniform, set the beaker containing the ferrous oxalate aside and allow the precipitate to settle. The ferrous oxalate will slowly sink to the bottom, leaving a relatively clear liquid at the top. The liquid is very acidic; it contains sulfuric acid in sufficient quantity to measure between pH 1 and 2. Pour the liquid off into a separate container, taking care to avoid the loss of any of the yellow precipitate. Neutralize the acid in the liquid by adding a cheap alkali such as sodium bicarbonate and dispose of it.

4. Wash the ferrous oxalate of any adhering chemicals. Do this by adding distilled or deionized water to the beaker and stirring. Tap water will do if that's all you have, but it's better not to use it, as it contaminates the ferrous oxalate with undesirable compounds such as chloride. After the precipitate settles, pour off the liquid. If the liquid is still strongly acidic, neutralize it before disposing of it.

5. Repeat the process of adding water, stirring, letting the precipitate settle, and pouring off the liquid four or five times until the pH of the washing liquid rises to at least 2.5. You may wish to repeat the process until the pH of the ferrous oxalate reaches 7 (about ten washes), but that much washing is not necessary.

When you have washed the precipitate at least four times, drain the ferrous oxalate, taking care to lose as little product as possible. Make sure the ferrous oxalate is in a 500 ml glass beaker.

6. Combine, in another vessel, 20.1 g of oxalic acid crystals and 60 ml of distilled water. Stir until the crystals are dissolved. Heat the water to hasten dissolution.

7. When the oxalic acid is dissolved, add it to the ferrous oxalate. Stir thoroughly in the 500 ml glass beaker. There will be little visible change, although the acid solution will thin the ferrous oxalate.

8. This step requires care and restraint. Make sure you wear safety glasses, rubber gloves, and a protective apron. Carefully measure, without spilling or touching, 50 ml of hydrogen peroxide 30% solution in a graduated cylinder. With a dropper, carefully add the hydrogen peroxide, 1 to 2 ml at a time, to the ferrous oxalate—oxalic acid mixture. The reaction may start slowly but will become quite active as it proceeds. Continue to add the peroxide very slowly, drop by drop, to control the heat and steam producing reaction. If you add more than a few drops of peroxide, the mixture will sputter and boil. Stir the solution with a long-handled glass rod after each
addition of peroxide.

After you have added approximately 20 to 30 ml of peroxide, the reaction will produce a clear brown solution (it looks like root beer). The amount of hydrogen peroxide needed for complete clarification depends on the amount of acid present in the ferrous oxalate.

9. Continue adding what remains of the 50 ml of peroxide, until the ferrous oxalate—oxalic acid mixture becomes a clear, homogeneous dark brown solution. It is possible that more than 50 ml will be needed to complete the reaction and clarify the solution. No harm will be done if you add a bit too much. You may have to add as much as 65 ml of hydrogen peroxide before the solution clears completely.

As the end of the reaction approaches, it becomes progressively less violent. You'll know the reaction is over when the addition of another milliliter or two of peroxide causes little or no, effervescence. The resulting ferric oxalate solution will be quite hot.

10. Test the solution for the presence of ferrous oxalate by using the dilute ferricyanide test (at the end). It is likely that some ferrous oxalate will be present in the solution, and you should expect the test to show a blue response. The ferrous ion is present because the ferric oxalate was made with as little oxalic acid as possible. If the test shows a blue precipitate, add a small amount of oxalic acid. As long as a blue precipitate forms when you add drops of the ferric oxalate solution to the ferricyanide solution, you must add more oxalic acid to the ferric oxalate. Try to add as little oxalic acid as possible to eliminate the remaining ferrous ion. Finally, add a milliliter or two of hydrogen peroxide to oxidize the ferrous oxalate to ferric oxalate.

11. To eliminate all the ferrous ion, continue adding oxalic acid to the ferric oxalate solution at a rate of 0.25 to 0.33 g at a time. After each addition of oxalic acid, add a drop or two of hydrogen peroxide until the effervescence reappears. It may be necessary to add as much as 1 to 2 g of oxalic acid to convert all the ferrous oxalate to ferric oxalate. After each addition of the two chemicals, repeat the ferricyanide test with fresh ferricyanide solution. Continue adding slight increments of oxalic acid and hydrogen peroxide until the addition of ferric oxalate solution to fresh
ferricyanide solution no longer produces a blue precipitate but only a yellow-brown response. Then the solution no longer contains any ferrous ion, and the process of making the ferric oxalate is finished. You may wish to add a few milliliters of hydrogen peroxide (until effervescence occurs) to ensure that the ferric oxalate solution has been completely oxidized. Effervescence occurs when all the ferrous oxalate has been
converted to ferric oxalate and the oxidizer begins converting excess oxalic acid to carbon dioxide.

12. Cool the ferric oxalate solution by putting the beaker in a larger vessel containing water and ice and stirring. When the solution has cooled to 60°F, measure its specific gravity 1.115 = 18% solution and pH (approx. 2). After you have taken these measurements, pour the solution into a dark brown bottle with an airtight seal.

Testing for Ferrous Ion: Dissolve a small amount (1/10 teaspoon) pf potassium
ferricyanide in 1 ounce of water, Stur until you have a uniform solution. Add 1 drop of the ferric oxalate solution to be tested in the ferricyanide solution. If no blue precipitate appears, the ferric oxalate is devoid of ferrous ion.

Have fun!

Steve
 

magic823

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glbeas said:
That would be quite interesting to see. Perhaps an article in the chemistry recipes?

I posted my recipe both in this thread and as an article.

Steve
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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Thanks Steve. One question. I thought we wanted 27% solution for the Platinum / Palladium process. Wouldn't 18% have me adding even more drops of the FO than I do already?
 

magic823

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You can adjust the formula to whatever % solution you want. 27% solution would have a specific gravity of about 1.175
 

Photo Engineer

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Just two thoughts on this.

1. Hydrogen peroxide (30%) is very powerful stuff and not on your every day shopping list. Be very careful with it. It is dangerous stuff and can burn you. Treat it with great caution.

2. The reaction can run away if not careful, leading to decomposition of the oxalic acid as noted above and the production of carbon dioxide gas. This can be a violent reaction if not carefully controlled. This is the step where most people mess up, and they lose oxalic acid to oxidation rather than formation of ferric ion from ferrous ion.

PE
 

magic823

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I have several other methods of making Ferric Oxalic. This is the easiest IMO (and the one I use), but you do have to be careful - very careful.
 

Jim Noel

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Jim,
I use a magnetic mixer to mix all solutions.
Ipurchase ferric oxalate form B&S and mix it in distilled water for sevral minutes. I then turn of the ixer and let is settle for a minute or two , then turn it back on. By the time all chemicals are added most are mixed. The rest usually dissolves sitting quietly over night in the bottle.

By the way, some one mentioned they used boiled water. Boiling water concentrates any material which happens to be in it because the water boils away first.

Jim
 

magic823

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I use a magnetic mixer also. It has a heater in the base also. Its the only way to mix!

Steve
 

vet173

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jimgalli said:
I boiled all the minerals out of it. Distilled. jg
It is my understanding you don't boil the minerals out. You distill the clean water off.You gotta still? Steam is clean which means the same minerals are now concentrated in a smaller volume of water. You can get rid of oxygen but not minerals by boiling.
 

vet173

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After looking at the recipie I think I will stir up some ink on a check and send it to the formulary. Or call me up when you do it so I can come over and watch you go thru it once. John
 
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jimgalli

jimgalli

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vet173 said:
It is my understanding you don't boil the minerals out. You distill the clean water off.You gotta still? Steam is clean which means the same minerals are now concentrated in a smaller volume of water. You can get rid of oxygen but not minerals by boiling.
Yes, I have a still. That's what I meant. I'm using steam distilled water.
 
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