For Sale Feedback - Warning

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

Oh, but we had good communication.
Up to the point where i made the first enquiry. From then on: nothing.

The last mail i received from him (on april 23rd) read: "I will get it sent off to you ASAP."

You know (on an unrelated note, and aside - lest i be accused of calling Photomem a con man) that "good communication" is the one and only tool of con men?

LyleB · Jun 29, 2010

Up to now, I've had no comment, but as one who frequently buys and occasionally sells online via various methods, the integrity of those involved is crucial. That said, this seller seems to have had a pretty good reputation, and has been around a while on this site. Past transactions have been completed successfully. One or two bad experiences should not serve to condemn the entire venue. There is a risk involved any time I make a purchase online. I have lost some substantial money, several hundred. This was from a supposedly legitimate, but basically one-man, company when the owner suffered very serious health problems, and my situation was never resolved. It happens, and is a risk when counting on other to fulfill obligations, especially in a delayed fashion as opposed to face to face - I pay, I get the product. Sometimes a situation is just unmanageable.

I can think of several scenarios where, if an individual is solely responsible for following through, a transaction could be fouled up. The person could have become incapacitated for a number of reasons, possibly not totally, as in unable to click on a site, but left with no capacity to follow through.

I guess my point is that this person was an active member here for quite a while, honestly completed transactions in the past, and has suddenly become non-communicative. My first and actually my continued response is that SOMETHING has happened to alter the situation. While letting others know that this seller may not currently be reliable is fine, I do not think it appropriate to attack his character, but rather give the benefit of the doubt, that if he was capable of correcting this, he would. I would feel the same, even if I were the one to have been the unlucky party. As mentioned, I have been.

Now if he returns, and begins again to post and offer items for sale, then by all means, he owes and explanation, apology, and refund or fulfillment of his previous obligation. In the meantime, benefit of the doubt seems appropriate rather than character attacks.

Not trying to be on a "High Horse" or anything, but I work in Emergency Medical Services, and see every day how suddenly competent, honest and very moral people can have their lives changed. It happens in an instant, and could happen to any of us without warning.

Sirius Glass · Jun 29, 2010

LyleB said:
Up to now, I've had no comment, but as one who frequently buys and occasionally sells online via various methods, the integrity of those involved is crucial. That said, this seller seems to have had a pretty good reputation, and has been around a while on this site. Past transactions have been completed successfully. One or two bad experiences should not serve to condemn the entire venue. There is a risk involved any time I make a purchase online. I have lost some substantial money, several hundred. This was from a supposedly legitimate, but basically one-man, company when the owner suffered very serious health problems, and my situation was never resolved. It happens, and is a risk when counting on other to fulfill obligations, especially in a delayed fashion as opposed to face to face - I pay, I get the product. Sometimes a situation is just unmanageable.

I can think of several scenarios where, if an individual is solely responsible for following through, a transaction could be fouled up. The person could have become incapacitated for a number of reasons, possibly not totally, as in unable to click on a site, but left with no capacity to follow through.

I guess my point is that this person was an active member here for quite a while, honestly completed transactions in the past, and has suddenly become non-communicative. My first and actually my continued response is that SOMETHING has happened to alter the situation. While letting others know that this seller may not currently be reliable is fine, I do not think it appropriate to attack his character, but rather give the benefit of the doubt, that if he was capable of correcting this, he would. I would feel the same, even if I were the one to have been the unlucky party. As mentioned, I have been.

Now if he returns, and begins again to post and offer items for sale, then by all means, he owes and explanation, apology, and refund or fulfillment of his previous obligation. In the meantime, benefit of the doubt seems appropriate rather than character attacks.

Not trying to be on a "High Horse" or anything, but I work in Emergency Medical Services, and see every day how suddenly competent, honest and very moral people can have their lives changed. It happens in an instant, and could happen to any of us without warning.

Your theory is nice but this particular seller has disappeared from APUG having burned more than one person to recently reappear elsewhere. Hence your theory does not apply in this situation.

Steve

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

LyleB said:
I can think of several scenarios where, if an individual is solely responsible for following through, a transaction could be fouled up. The person could have become incapacitated for a number of reasons, possibly not totally, as in unable to click on a site, but left with no capacity to follow through.

I guess my point is that this person was an active member here for quite a while, honestly completed transactions in the past, and has suddenly become non-communicative. My first and actually my continued response is that SOMETHING has happened to alter the situation. While letting others know that this seller may not currently be reliable is fine, I do not think it appropriate to attack his character, but rather give the benefit of the doubt, that if he was capable of correcting this, he would. I would feel the same, even if I were the one to have been the unlucky party. As mentioned, I have been.

Nobody is attacking nobodies character.
Facts are supplied.
Like:

Ian Grant said:
He was active on another forum 4 days ago, and here 3 weeks ago even if he hasn't posted.

Boys and girls, it seems like someone who very probably did something we could have him arrested for (and don't you forget that that's indeed how it is) gets more sympathy then the people he let down.

Why is that?

Why do you keep speculating about the seller perhaps not being capable of communicating, ignoring the info that he in fact did?
Just not here on APUG. And not with the people whose money he took.

You show to be a very concerning, compassionate person, Lyle. And i truly applaud you for that.
But strangely, your compassion and sympathy appears to be wholy focussed on the guy who took our money. No compassion left for his victims.
What's up with that???

Luckily, not all APUGers rather flock on the side of the one who is better off (he has our money, and our cameras, remember?) by stinging other people.
And i sincerely thank those fellow APUGers!

Worker 11811 · Jun 29, 2010

Q.G. said:
What i don't know is whether he is still with us, under a newly assumed APUG-identity.

That's why God invented IP addresses. Isn't it?

(Okay, so God didn't invent IPs but he invented the people who invented them so it's almost the same thing. )

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2010

It all comes down to this.... he has access to Internet. All he has to do is contact the buyer or respond here to clear his name. He knows there are people looking for him. I hope he does and does so soon.

dbonamo · Jun 29, 2010

Ian Grant said:
We take a risk when we buy or sell on APUG, but it's worth asking that a moderator look at the situation, I'd guess it's that time in your case.

Ian

True we may take a risk here, but much less of a risk then the alternative sites. There are steps to help protect ourselves, as a buyer I try to use PayPal, and I usually will not send it as a gift. I will offer to pay any fee's if seller insist. In most cases PayPal will not extend buyer protection to "gifts", I know some here have mix feelings about PayPal and there buyer protection, but in the few cases I had to use this, I had no issues from them.

As a seller, I know from experience things can happen in which shipping is delayed, but as it has already been said COMMUNICATIONS is the key....... In the OP situation, it has been 2 months now since he has heard anything, so there is reason to be concern, and hopefully everything will work out.

As for a feedback system, do we really want to be like e***? I think if a user starts using APUG to defraud fellow members, I think that is grounds to be banned, Moderator's correct me if I am wrong..

Just my thoughts..

dbonamo · Jun 29, 2010

Worker 11811 said:
That's why God invented IP addresses. Isn't it?

(Okay, so God didn't invent IPs but he invented the people who invented them so it's almost the same thing. )

Yes, but if he is dynamic, which most are, it will change each time he connects to the Internet...

Ian Grant · Jun 29, 2010

dbonamo said:
True we may take a risk here, but much less of a risk then the alternative sites. There are steps to help protect ourselves, as a buyer I try to use PayPal, and I usually will not send it as a gift. I will offer to pay any fee's if seller insist. In most cases PayPal will not extend buyer protection to "gifts", I know some here have mix feelings about PayPal and there buyer protection, but in the few cases I had to use this, I had no issues from them.

As a seller, I know from experience things can happen in which shipping is delayed, but as it has already been said COMMUNICATIONS is the key....... In the OP situation, it has been 2 months now since he has heard anything, so there is reason to be concern, and hopefully everything will work out.

As for a feedback system, do we really want to be like e***? I think if a user starts using APUG to defraud fellow members, I think that is grounds to be banned, Moderator's correct me if I am wrong..

Just my thoughts..

We had a feedback system, people asked for the system to be changed so that went.

In general 99.9% of transactions are fine it's these odd ones that cause an issue, they are so few taht perhaps it would be better to get a moderator involved earlier before people are named rather than later.

I've bought many items here with only one issue, sorted by a moderator.

Ian

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2010

dbonamo said:
Yes, but if he is dynamic, which most are, it will change each time he connects to the Internet...

Actually, no it doesn't do that always.... That was true when we had dial up. With most DSL and cable providers, your IP address is surprisingly static. If you actually disconnect and reconnect the modem, it will likely change but if you leave your modem turned on, like most of us do, with most providers, even if the DHCP expires and renews, you get the same address.

Of course, this is not guaranteed....

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 29, 2010

I would suggest at this point that speculation end and we wait to hear either from the seller or the buyers who are trying to contact him through his e-mail address and phone number that have been posted above.

If someone has a double identity on APUG, that's usually not hard for us to figure out. I haven't researched it specifically yet, but I don't think that's the issue here. There are people waiting for stuff, and they haven't gotten their stuff.

So what I will recommend is that anyone who is waiting for things from Photomem, please send me a PM here, let me know what you've done to try to contact him, and I'll see what I can find out.

removed account4 · Jun 29, 2010

every few months there seems to be a thread like this

the feedback system was helpful because it warned people
of buyers who had been not so nice or no so responsive or not selling
what they said they were going to sell.

i don't think it will turn this place into e--y at all
it didn't do it before, not sure why it would do it now.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 29, 2010

I think the main problem with the feedback system was that there weren't enough people using it, and most people aren't making so many transactions, so it only provided random, spotty information.

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
I would suggest at this point that speculation end and we wait to hear either from the seller or the buyers who are trying to contact him through his e-mail address and phone number that have been posted above.

If someone has a double identity on APUG, that's usually not hard for us to figure out. I haven't researched it specifically yet, but I don't think that's the issue here. There are people waiting for stuff, and they haven't gotten their stuff.

So what I will recommend is that anyone who is waiting for things from Photomem, please send me a PM here, let me know what you've done to try to contact him, and I'll see what I can find out.

I don't expect to ever see either my money or the goods.
Like you said, David, we always take a risk when buying something, especially over the internet.

Just thought that (also because i'm not the only one who is still waiting, out of pocket) it might be a good idea to give a warning.
Didn't expect (nor can i believe!) the reception a well meant warning got...

Trust me, i'll not try to warn fellow APUGers again. Let's just all keep believing that bad things don't happen on APUG instead.
So as far as i am concerned, the feedback thingy can remain what it presently is: nonexistent.

Sirius Glass · Jun 29, 2010

jnanian said:
every few months there seems to be a thread like this

the feedback system was helpful because it warned people
of buyers who had been not so nice or no so responsive or not selling
what they said they were going to sell.

i don't think it will turn this place into e--y at all
it didn't do it before, not sure why it would do it now.

It is a rare event here, but that is because an offender gets blocked from selling here.

J Rollinger · Jun 29, 2010

I think situations like this can happen anywhere and are very rare on APUG. I have a higher trust for fellow Apugers than any other auction or photography site. I prefer to buy from APUG classifieds than anywhere else!

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
It is a rare event here, but that is because an offender gets blocked from selling here.

But how can you let 'The Blockers' know that someone has offe...

Oh wait! I wouldn't.

Worker 11811 · Jun 29, 2010

dbonamo said:
Yes, but if he is dynamic, which most are, it will change each time he connects to the Internet...

Unless a user changes Internet Service Providers and/or moves to a different location, his IP address will vary within a specific range which was allocated to his provider.

You might not be able to pin my IP down to a specific address every time but you can say that "Worker 11811" connects via Verizon DSL from the west side of Erie, PA and his address varies in the range of 72.92.160.0 through 72.95.79.255

If somebody uses an internet cafe or a Wi-Fi hotspot to connect, his IP will vary but, again, you can still pin the address down to that location, all of which will vary within a geographic area. In other words, I could try to use my laptop computer to post from a Starbucks coffee shop but my address would still register as coming from Erie, PA. Most people don't travel more than 50 miles away from their home. Unless one is a traveling salesman or something like that, he would have to take great pains to move outside the home area where he usually lives, works and plays.

It is possible to spoof, anonymize or otherwise obscure one's IP address but, unless you are an expert, it will be apparent that your IP is not correct or is hidden. In that case, a person's identity would be suspect on the mere fact that he is trying to hide. (i.e. One who has nothing to hide will not normally take steps to hide his identity.)

You are correct in saying that IP addresses vary but, for the purposes of determining who it is relatively safe to do business via the internet with, it is possible to get enough information to make an educated guess.

And, if the major ISPs of the world would get off their collective gluteus maximi and activate the IP-v6 protocol we would have even better tools to help us figure out who it is safer to do business with and who it is not.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 29, 2010

Worker 11811 said:
You are correct in saying that IP addresses vary but, for the purposes of determining who it is relatively safe to do business via the internet with, it is possible to get enough information to make an educated guess

Having had to trace IP addresses for various reasons, like when a banned member is posting under an alias, even when someone is good at anonymizing themselves, I can say that this is true. It's pretty obvious when someone is using an anonymizer, and ultimately there are things that are not so easy to conceal, like someone's style of writing, photographic obsessions, and such. We know pretty much which dynamic IPs to ignore, and we can trace IP addresses to a location when we have to narrow that down and look someone up in the phone book, say to figure out what happened to the Traveling Portfolio when it's gone missing for a few months, or occasionally to help resolve a transaction through the classifieds. We also have other ways of figuring out if someone is posting under an alias, so if we have to find someone, it's usually done through a combination of methods.

Ian Grant · Jun 29, 2010

As David knows one errant banned APUG member was caught out under new persona because of his use of language and inability to retell the same story under a new name. without it being blatant. He happily posts to himself.

Ian

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2010

I think it's funny you mentioned "photographic obsessions" to identify members... hehe

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

tkamiya said:
I think it's funny you mentioned "photographic obsessions" to identify members... hehe

Yes.
It would be fun if we slowly 'grew' a profile, based on the typical things we do, say, photograph, etc.
Though, i'm sure, it would not be very flattering for some (like me) to see how our own profile develops.

tkamiya · Jun 29, 2010

My profile would be "obsessed with Tmax and XTOL trying to get it just right. after almost a year, still trying..."

Why not just end this thread, O.G. I don't think anything good will come out of it anymore.

Q.G. · Jun 29, 2010

tkamiya said:
Why not just end this thread, O.G. I don't think anything good will come out of it anymore.

We could turn it into lots of pleasant banter about some jolly things.

But you're right.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 29, 2010

Okay, let's close it.

Anyone else trying to contact photomem about an incomplete transaction, please PM me, and I'll see if I can make any progress.

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